to think these people were selfish and rude.

[cakeoclock]

The push chair v wheelchair on a bus just reminded me what happened this weekend.

I was christmas shopping with friends (one in a wheelchair) in Harvey Nicks Leeds and it was pretty busy. We stood waiting for the lift, the doors opened and it was rammed full of people (no push chairs). Not one of the miserable gits got out to make space for the wheelchair just looked away until the doors shut and we had to wait ages for another lift. There were escalators less than a minute walk from the lift.

AIBU to think that this is lazy, selfish and awful and to hope if any of you are reading you feel ashamed.

Oh my goodness wannaBe

One of the most reasoned, reasonable, succinct, sensible posts on here.

You think so? I don't completely agree with Wannabe and as an able bodied person will continue to believe that those in ales fortunate situation to me in regards to mobility should be given priority. I'd just prefer the world to work like that, those less able get some consideration.

I don't think it is an issue of precedence. People referencing that baffle me.
It is just about consideration. I am not sure why it is more complicated than that

FolkGirl
At the risk of sounding churlish.

I am only posting my opinion. I am not responsible for neuromantic, nor the content of her posts.
Referencing me is a bit passive aggressive tbh.

It is about choice here. Those in a wheelchair have none, they have to use a lift. As has been referenced by a few posters, it often isn't a matter of just waiting for the next one. Even if it was, for your average able bodied person nipping up the stairs or using the escalator would be quicker than having to wait...they'd still get there before the wheelchair user.

Yes, sozzled, I do.

Tbh, as I have said before, we have disabilities in our family and no one ever has conversations/expresses gripes of the nature I read on here. And these are close family members that we see regularly. Some of them in the early stages of diagnosis or getting support systems in place express frustration at the bureaucracy but the anger and the vitriol on read on here isn't what I've heard from family and friends.

I have friends/colleagues with disabled parents/siblings/children and whilst they may have gripes about particular incidents, problems or situations, I still don't hear the complaints from them that I read on here.

One of my friends has 4 children, one of whom has diagnoses of autism, severe global delay and dyspraxia. He's non-verbal and has very limited mobility. He doesn't attend a mainstream school and will never live independently. She works full time, runs her own business and travels up and down the country doing her job. It's not been easy at times for her/them, and believe me, she struggled in the early days and had some really down times, but she'd happily slap you before she'd let you suggest that she/he/or they should be treated with kid gloves.

Clearly everybody's personal experience is unique. and that is the point that wannaBe is making. So the parts I agree with are:

While I appreciate that we should have consideration for others I think this goes both ways and that no one person deserves more consideration than anyone else purely based on their circumstances. Yes sometimes we will do things to benefit someone else but this should not be an automatic expectation - we are all individuals and all have individual lives and needs and circumstances and one does not necessarily take precedence over the other.

I also think it is extremely patronising to make the blanket statement/assumption that because someone has a disability they necessarily have a more difficult life - this is absolutely not the case. Someone with a disability may have to do things slightly differently to someone without but this does not automatically equal a hard life.

Having a disability does not make you any more entitled any more than not having a disability makes you ignorant/rude/selfish if you don't always put the perceived needs of the disabled first..

None of this means that people shouldn't be considerate, just that some of the vitriol and name calling on here isn't really appropriate. of course, out and out rudeness and idiocy is a different matter, but most people are reasonable. Surely?!

agree with wannabe- COMPLETELY

and I dont think it kills people to try and be considerate. BUT neither does it kill someone to wait 5 mins for another lift does it?

i think by trying to be open to SN, people go too far

I can well imagine myself in that life, and I am not a selfish disablist wanker!

Pagwatch wasn't passive aggressive. but after several posts where the tone of the thread had changed completely it all got churned up again.

I know you're not responsible for someone else's posts.

FolkGirl

I have a child exactly like you friend.
I appreciate it when the world makes allowances for him.
I never regard courtesy as patronising.

Having a disability does tend to mean that your life is harder than others. That kind of goes with the description. My sons issues absolutely make life harder. Of course they do.

I think neuromantic was responding to Davsmum. Which I think is where it all got shirty again

I?m not understanding why the escalator thing is such a big deal. Surely, many of the people in the lift don?t know about the escalator?

i.e. I get in the lift on the ground floor, doors open on the 2nd floor to a wheelchair user. And I should leave the lift immediately because she needs to get in and I am able to use the escalator. But how do I know the escalator is right next to her? I might never have seen the second floor in my life! What a bizarre assumption that everyone knows the layout of these places.

I have never got out the lift for a wheelchair user, this has never happened to me. Because I don?t often come across wheelchair users, what with the country only containing a tiny number of them and all. It appears all of that tiny number use mums net, or have a mother or a best friend who uses mumsnet though.

Its only a lift, how long can it take? 10 minutes max? its not like they'll be there 8 days waiting for the next lift.

Porca
In order to avoid the possibility that neuromantic may spontaneously combust, and without wishing to contradict wannabe, it often isn't an extra 5 minutes.

The lifts at the shopping centre where I used to live has lifts or stairs into the centre from the car park. But all the disabled spaces were near the lift above level two. So the people using disabled parking would get to the lifts to find them filled both on the way up and on the way down.
I know this because ds2 at the time struggled with stairs.

If it were 5 minutes, I doubt the thread would exist.

I understand that Pagwatch, but if someone doesn't extend the courtesy that you would like to see or would hope to expect, I would also hope that your first response would not be that were an unreasonable tosser. People act in lots of different ways for lots of different reasons and often behave in different ways on different days.

but it is about consideration vs expectation.

Nothing wrong with being considerate of others, and it's nice when people are, be that to help a disabled person/hold a door for someone with their hands full/help someone with their buggy on/off a bus and the list goes on.

The thing I have issue with though is when the appreciation of that consideration turns into expectation and subsequently resentment of the lack thereof/judgement of those who are not as considerate as we would like.

Maryz but in my road-crossing senario there would eventually be a break in the traffic and I would cross. In the same way that it would be unlikely that all the lifts would be so full as to not be able to get in.

It is, of course, entirely reasonable to be annoyed at the fact it took me fifteen minutes to cross a busy road (if that were to be the case) or that the wheelchair user had to wait ten minutes to get in a lift that wasn't full.

When it becomes unreasonable is when you start blaming other people - if I started ranting that car drivers were rude/inconsiderate for not stopping to let me cross the road -- that is when you start creating that culture of expectation.

I am very grateful when someone stops to let me cross the road. But I do not expect it and I do not think less of those that do not do so.

Of course it wouldn't be. I have said ad nauseum that people should not feel compelled to do anything.

I just don't understand. It eludes me. A person in a wheelchair almost certainly has a more challenging life than me. Why would I not, on a normal day with nothing untoward going on to affect me, let them go first?

I don't really understand why it isn't knee jerk, like not letting the door slam in the face of the person behind you, or helping a person with a buggy on a staircase. It's just what we do isn't it?

I can't respond to a general scenario based only on the circumstances that one time in your local shopping centre can I?

Or, exactly what wannabe said. i can't spend my life thinking what might possibly have happened to everyone else just in case they need something which they have no actual right to, but a secret/unspoken expectation/ entitlement?

Maryz that's true but then people will say allsorts on the internet. And people will play devil's advocate and people will just challenge other people if they think they are being rude and unpleasant in the way they express their points and some people will because they like engage in the debate. It doesn't necessarily mean that in the cold hard light of day they are a complete tosser.

I do encounter shitty people in RL. Some of the people are shitty because of their behaviour, some are shitty because of their narrow minded attitudes, but, tbf, they are few and far between and whilst they elicit a few s, I'm generally just surprised to find that people who hold that opinion exist outside of the anecdotes of MN! They certainly don't exist in large enough numbers to have much of an impact on the world, and whilst it might be infuriating (and sometimes laughable) that they hold the opinions they do, their impact on the world is pretty limited.

Of course, we all make up our disabled mothers/friends/children for deliberate effect on Mumsnet.