for putting my principles above my child's education?

[ThisTimeNextWeek]

This is just a wee, daft one.
I morally object to both religious schools and private education. Since my child's birth, I have felt increasingly objectionable to both, but in recent times, I've been wondering just whether I can legitimately and ethically put my principles above her education. The best local primary school in the area is private and the second best is Catholic. By dismissing these options, I am setting my sights on the third best school in the area (actually, fourth as the third best is desperately pretentious and I think I object to that one more).
Am I being unreasonable?

I think it is very relivant, not necciserily to the Op but to everyone else who is going on about morals.

MrSpoc Well I know for example that the school my dcs go to get lower than average grades. This means that a lot of parents don't want to send their children there as they assume it must be shit. What the figures don't tell you is that about 10% of the children have a particular disability which massively and directly affects these figures, so you can't rely on them for an idea of how well your own child will do at this school. It's really rather unfair as it's a great school and all the kids are very accepting of SN and disability. The children have a good well rounded education, and are compassionate. That is worth so much!

"If state education became only half as good as it is now, and private school places were £300 a year instead of £10000, you can bet a lot of the nay-sayers would suddenly be interested in losing their "principles"."

This is a neat description of the current situation in France, where state schools are emptying at an astonishing rate and private schools have massive waiting lists...

When I say grades I just mean test results as it's a primary, so no actual grades involved!

Primary school is about social well-being. The National Curriculum covers just about every angle in education, I've learnt more with my dds than I ever learnt at primary school - and beyond. The schools with more children on free school meals get more money and often have smarter teachers. The foundation stage is just heart-warmingly nurturing to children (if the pushy parents allow for the lack of academic challenges).

I know people who have trekked their children across London for them to go to a slightly better school than their local. What their children end up with is no friends outside school and an unbalanced dependence on Mummy and Daddy. Usually unfit because their journey is a drive away.

Some of the 'better' schools simply have pushier parents. Sometimes their kids are hung up about this, competetive etc. So behaviour problems come from the aspirational parents as well as the less aspirational ones.

Consider not just the school, but the school community. If there are enough families there that yours will get on with, you are in the right place. It doesn't have to be the majority, just enough for your child to feel part of the system, for you to have someone to chat to in the playground. This is all about social inclusion - and for that reason I wouldn't send them to a school where they will be the only child from your culture/background/aspirations.

FYI I had a child at a bog standard primary and one at a yummy mummy school. The first gave DD1 lasting friendships and the desire to take risks and have a laugh, the second gave DD2 social exclusion, false friends, but a naice accent and a good understanding of nutrition and healthy eating.

Good luck.

Of course YANBU. An intelligent child will do well at any school. Ony thicko middle-class wimps need to send their imbecilic kids to particular schools for them to do well. Better for a child to learn a decent ethical system than to be cramming maths that they'll then still be rubbish at if they don't have the intelligence to work it out for themself anyway.

realhousewife Well said.

Wibley, in my experience as a parent and a teacher I actually could not disagree more with you.

An intelligent child will do well at any school.

Actually, if there are a significant number of low-ability and/or disruptive children alongside them, this is less likely to be the case. Also, some teachers tend to concentrate mainly on the middle ability ranges (because it's easier or because it helps test results) rather than the lower or higher ability levels.

An intelligent child will probably do OK anywhere but there's a big difference between an unobtrusive OK/good and the outstanding levels they could possibly reach in the right environment.

Not to mention the bullying of higher-ability children by those who see enthusiasm for learning as very uncool.

I think you should ask your children if they want to go to the school down the road or the school a long way away where none of their neighbours go.

Beertricks - primary education is not a competetive sport. It's deeper and wider than 'achieving their personal best'.

what realhousewife said :)

"For those of us without the money to opt for private education I'd like to see grammars reintroduced." That's exactly what I was talking about. I went to a grammar school myself and thought it was wonderful ... Until I went, as a teacher trainee, to the schools in the same area for those who DON'T pass the exam. A school where every single entrant is, by definition, a failure is hardly conducive to high aspirations or success stories. Of course, those children are in the majority in that area ...

Is this meant to be fair in some way, just because it's free at point of use?

Hmmm...on one hand what use are morals if you do not put them into practice? If no-one went to private school, state schools would probably improve across the board. On the other hand, you want to do the best for your children. We are lucky that we have good non-denominational state schools near us so I hope I won't have to face this dilemma.

In my case, my dad went to a private school, my mum to a grammar in the days of the 11+, but my sister and I went to our local comprehensive, mostly for economic and practical reasons. It was certainly not a bad school, but by no means an outstanding one either. However, I think my parents' (or at least my mum's) morals were also involved. She is very much against private schooling and to a lesser extent grammar schools.

I also believe that children from homes where education is valued and where they are encouraged to work hard at school (and have parents who can possibly afford a bit of private tuition if necessary) will do well in any reasonable school.

I agree totally with Newsclippings too. You do see really brilliant children doing OK in a crap school because they're so motivated they teach themselves, but if the child is just very bright or averagely bright rather than brilliant, then it's bloody demoralising to be in a class that is constantly disrupted by bad behaviour and where the teacher is intent on teaching to the lowest common denominator so they can get their quota of C grades at GCSE.

Of course YANBU. An intelligent child will do well at any school

Its a darn site tougher where brains are uncool and aspirations are low. But the kids I feel sorriest for are the average but diligent kids. Half the difference in results between good and bad schools is just less tolerance of disruption IMO.

I would walk over hot coals or push the last mum in line out the way to get the best for my child
really.
wow.
so - to hell with society, it's every one in it for themselves. i suppose if that was the line for a transplant, you'd feel the same way.

why have kids if you don't want them to grow up in a world where people are decent to one another?

i want DD to grow up with principles and to be kind and to believe in justice and making the world a better place. if her life is less comfortable for that, so be it.

That is very sad. It's one thing to regretfully pay for something, with a good will and care for others - even perhaps assisting someone else who couldn't otherwise afford it. But deliberately pushing others out of the way? Words fail me

"push the last mum in line out the way"

DCs before principles IMO-they tend to be resentful later if they were put second.

I'd say go with your principles - they matter more (unless the fourth best school is really rubbish, in which case, move :) ).

I did this - we chose to send our dc to an academically average faith school - because that REALLY mattered to me - over a highly academic non-faith school.

At secondary, I agonised more, but have this time gone for v academic over a faith school (I'm still finding it a hard adjustment, but think primary school is more important for learning about your faith, and they've had 8 years of learning in a faith environment, so am reluctantly letting them out into the real world :)).

So the same situation, just views on faith schools reversed. I'm with you on private schools though.

It all depends on whether the DC agrees with your principles, and there is nothing to say that they will think the same.

Hi, sorry, I'm back. I've had a shit day, mostly spent at Tesco, crying about a massive cock-up with my daughter's Chirstmas present and then writing a letter of complaint. I hadn't anticipated this would go on so long and so I haven't read all of the replies yet. There are a few that have stood out and I want to clarify before I continue.

Someone suggested that I have no real dilemma and that I posted this just to start an argument about private/religious schools. I'd like to respond to this. I started this, not because I have a dilemma, but because I was curious about how reasonable or unreasonable my thoughts were on this subject. I don't recall suggesting this was a massive dilemma. Also, to put this all into perspective - my daughter is 16 months old and I have recently been prompted by friends to start looking seriously into what schools she might go to (and nursery). Because she is only 16 months old, I have not approached any schools to ask for a tour as it has been suggested to me that I would be declined until she is older. Also, as a few people have suggested, I am not suggesting my principles are fine until it comes to me and my special family and that I'm going to drop them suddenly. I still believe very strongly in my principles and the idea of sending her to either private or the local Catholic school has only come up because all of my friends (with children the same age as mine) have been talking about this a lot and most of them are opting to send their children to the Catholic school (none of them are Catholic), and are looking at me like I have two heads when I tell them I won't send her there. So, after a while, this has naturally prompted me to question whether or not I ought to stick by my beliefs or if I really am being an awful mum for choosing the fourth best school.

To put this school into perspective, as I only have OFSTED reports to go on so far, it has been graded as 'good' and one of my friend's who is a primary school teacher really rates it and is sending her child there. It is certainly not a 'sink school', from what I can gather. But it is becoming an issue among friends simply because it is not the best according to OFSTED. I'm happy to accept that my friends who are pestering me about this are perhaps too reliant on OFSTED and aren't looking at the bigger picture. I will definitely be asking to look around the school, but I don't think that would be allowed just yet.

From having read more comments on this subject, I appreciate the comments from those who look to more than just academic quality when deciding how good a school is. I hadn't previously given much thought to the other areas and I will definitely keep the more rounded view to the forefront of my mind. When I really think about it, I don't think grades are the be all and end all. I don't think a high-paid job and PhD is the definition of happiness. I am confident that I can support her education in this 'good' school.

Thank you all for your comments. It has been quite a mind-opening experience to see the perspective of those who value their morals differently to others and to see how others interpret success and happiness.

To the one poster who decided this must be nonsense because the first three options aren't actually options - I will say one more time - option one (private) is an option if needed. I did not say I would need it all paid for, just that there is financial help if required so it is technically an option for everyone. Option two (Catholic) is an option despite my lack of religion because one does not have to be Catholic (or religious in any way) to attend. Nor are they required to pretend to be religious. Option three isn't an option (nor am I snobby and jealous for not living in the catchment area) as I do not live in their designated area. I don't know the legalities of how they practice enrolment but when I tried to apply to send my daughter to the nursery (keeping options open) they asked for my council tax bill so they could verify my address and explained that while they cannot prevent my daughter from attending the nursery based on my address, they do not accept children into the primary school directly from the nursery and only if you are in the catchment area.

Sorry for the essay. I just thought I'd clear all of that up.

Well if she's only 16 months it could all be very different in three years time!

I wouldn't pay a huge amount of attention to the OFSTED report. It's just one part of the puzzle really. It's a bit like jobs. On paper a top city firm that pays squillions and makes a good profit looks great, but it might not be the place you want to work because your priorities are different or you are just different and it doesn't suit you.

A good OFSTED, recommendation from friends and a good vibe sound perfect criteria for me. Our local Catholic school is OFSTED outstanding in all areas except pastoral care. They are not tolerant enough of other cultures and faiths apparently according to the report. For me that's a deal breaker. It doesn't matter how good they are at teaching maths or anything else if they can't teach social skills like tolerance.

(Btw, you dd will love whatever you get her, especially the box )