for putting my principles above my child's education?

[ThisTimeNextWeek]

This is just a wee, daft one.
I morally object to both religious schools and private education. Since my child's birth, I have felt increasingly objectionable to both, but in recent times, I've been wondering just whether I can legitimately and ethically put my principles above her education. The best local primary school in the area is private and the second best is Catholic. By dismissing these options, I am setting my sights on the third best school in the area (actually, fourth as the third best is desperately pretentious and I think I object to that one more).
Am I being unreasonable?

My comment was based on the fact the OP seemed to suggest in the opening post that her DC would suffer for her moral choice. If the alternative is ok, and the OP does not think they would suffer, then of course the moral choice is the right answer.
I think the point i am trying to make is that moral certainty is easy if you and yours do not suffer. The Diane Abbott point is well made as she obviously did not believe what she was saying, but only the impact on her family forced her to face the contradiction and admit what she really felt all along.

I don't think I did suggest she'd suffer for it, just that we could do 'better'. But if that's what you read then I apologise for the confusion.

The Diane Abbott point does also show that what freaks out any government is what's happening to schools in London - and fair enough there are a lot of schools in London - but it's hardly the whole picture, is it?

I've sat in briefings with [not for I would hasten to add] Ruth Kelly and David Miliband (way back!) and it was London, London, London.

It was repeatedly pointed out to them that what most parents wanted was just for their local school to be a good school - but they were briefed to death seemingly by their civil servants on academies under BSF, and there I will stop.

OK my last post sounded like I am nuttier than I am. To explain I am Irish and living in Ireland. Something like 90% plus of schools are catholic. I was brought up as a catholic, and I married a catholic in a civil ceremony. My husband christened our son I had no problem as it meant nothing to me. My husband died the following year. The priests that met with my inlaws (with my absolute approval) who gave him last rights, buried him-never once felt it appropiate to walk up to me and sympathise-I assume it was because they knew I wasn't paying them............

I'm not religious, dp is catholic but not practicing, the best school in the area is catholic so that's where we will send ds

Surely part of this depends on how bad school 4 is. It is, after all, only Primary school. How bad can it be? Surely at this point it is what kind of school suits your child.

As for the principle element, quite apart from not being able to afford it, I didn't send my children to a private primary because I don't think it is in my children's best interests to mix with that sort of child (although that would weigh up differently at secondary level if the other option is really bad, although not an option for me for financial reasons). I didn't send them to a religious school because I don't think it is in children's best interests to be exposed to that much religion.

Your principles don't seem to be about what is best for your children, but what is best for other people's. If this is the case, I don't see how it makes the system better or worse if your child ends up the Catholic school rather somebody else's - it is still segregated.

You lose out either way. If you send your child to a private school, people will accuse you of being a hypocrite. If you refuse to send your child to a private school, people will accuse you of sacrificing your child to your principles.

That, unfortunately, is the problem with having principles - must be great to be one of those people whose only principle is "me, me, me" and manages to find a spurious moral justification for every selfish act. (I won't mention any names, but hey, you all know who I'm talking about...)

Anyway, that doesn't answer the question, does it? Personally I don't like faith schools and I would feel mildly uncomfortable sending my child to a C of E school, and extremely uncomfortable sending them to a Catholic school. Catholic schools tend to be pretty heavy on the indoctrination front, ime. Also, would you have to pretend to be a Catholic to get in? That would make it even worse.

I guess it all depends really on how bad schools 3 and 4 are. Have you been to visit them? How bad are they? And are they bad from a behaviour point of view or an academic achievement point of view or in some other way altogether?

I am not catholic not very religious at all but i woulndt put my kids to a catholic school just because it was the best school , the Rc schools round here seem to be the best the high school certainly is , i think its a bit hypocritical to say oh i dont believe , then say oh go on then , i will look the other way ,

I always think of extra stuff after posting!

I think if the state primary (third or fourth choice) isn't too bad, then it's probably going for it, both because you can make up a lot of deficiencies in primary education at home, and because if you're tight on money, it's better to save it up for secondary school, when you may really need to go private.

I would definitely recommend visiting the school, though. You cannot trust either Ofsted reports or league table results. You need to get a feel for whether children are well-behaved in lessons, what the quality of pastoral care is like, how well they engage the children (are the classrooms bright and welcoming? Are there examples of children's work on the wall? etc).

It depends on how you're deciding what is and isn't a good school. If it's solely based on OFSTED results then you're being totally U as OFSTED is a ton of manure and says nothing at all about the school except for how well the HT and teachers can put on a song and dance for three days. If you've actually been to the schools, looked around, talked to teachers and parents of children going there, heard it's a nice place with good policies on bullying etc then fair enough go for the good one.

Depends what you view as the 'best' school. For me, the atmosphere of the school counts for a lot, as does a lack of religious dogma. I think my children are at the 'best' local school for them. There are three schools about 5 mins walk away and my children are at the one that's not catholic and not super-strict ofsted outstanding. We're extremely happy with it.

I would stick to your principles.

It's all very well sticking to your principles if you live in the catchment area of an outstanding state school or if your your child just happens (no coaching, that would be unprincipled) to pass the 11 plus. Most people just want to do what's best for their child.

Morally objecting to the fact that religious and private schools exist doesn't automatically mean that you can't use them. The fact is that they do exist, and that therefore what ought to be a level playing field with state schools providing the level of education that many parents demand is nothing of the sort.

So it's a question of how you weigh up the "social good" of potentially improving a poor school by sending your child there and getting involved, vs the "personal good" of giving your child the best start.

And the best start for your child is paradoxically tied up with whether you think its better for them to be at a higher-achieving school or learning more broadly about life and other people.

For me, it would depend how poor the available options are, and what the probability seemed to be of my stance improving it - I wouldn't sacrifice a child's education to make a point about the world "not being fair", any more than I'd fail to feed him properly because so many people can't afford decent nutritious food. But if I thought making one choice rather than another would only slightly disadvantage him while helping others then that's different.

Since the 4th best is "pretty decent" I'd probably go with that and put the extra time and effort into getting involved to improve it where possible.

I would be happy to put my principles first - tbh as long as you are going to support and continue to have interest in your Childs education. It's not a terrible school and your child has no specific problems then stick with your principles it makes life a lot easier to explain later on.
I went to the local school it was rubbish but (the only choice really, rural child) and it didn't do me any harm. Despite not going to the best school I still managed to get decent grades (worked hard not academically gifted) go to uni and have a successful career.
I also know lots of people who went to the 'best' schools (be it private or selective) and squandered the experience.

"'Never inflict your morals on your kids' - really? Don't instill any beliefs in them you believe to be important? Wow."

I think there is a clear difference between inflicting your morals onto your child and raising them to understand choices and the reasoning behind them.

I wonder if a child would ever thank you for sticking to your principles and, in this case, sending them to a "less good" school. ALthough, at primary level, I am less convinced of the benefits of private education unless your local state primaries are truly awful.

To paraphrase Kate Atkinson, DS is my principles.

It depends on your definition of what a good school is. If you're going by OFSTED reports, that's one thing, but if you've been round the schools and are actively denying your DD a place at the school where you feel she'd be happiest, then yes, YABU.

I went to a Catholic school - I would never inflict that experience upon my child. I think that parents obsessed enough to ignore their principles for the sake of grades will find their children likely to do academically well in any case because they will pass on that obsession to their children. I don't think this is a good thing - there are many unhappy hot housed children who think the most important thing in life is coming top, and who have many issues into adulthood. I will be looking for a school that focusses on whole person happiness rather than grades.

OP I have an identical dilemma. Only it's not really a dilemma to me just to other people: 'but WHY are you not going to send DS to private school when you have the money'. And 'as you're not going private SURELY you ate going to climb up the vicars arse at St Whoever to get DS into St Whoever primary school?'.

Erm NO.

FIRST my DH and I were both state educated. We both qualified and worked as lawyers. Some say despite our education. I say I'm grateful for it and it encouraged me to push for meritocracy. I was to instil such values in my son. Want to do x y z? Put in some graft sunshine.

SECOND I object to state faith schools. Discrimination against or favouritism to a child of a taxpayer based in their parent's faith/willingness to lie and be a hypocrite is not on in a state school funded by taxpayers.

THIRD should I lie and send diddums to said CofE school I fear I would harm his education by clashing with the school on what they are teaching my son re religion creationism refusal to allow Harry potter blah blah.

Go with your principles.

My mum was an atheist but sent me to a Catholic secondary school. She had a choice of 2 schools in the area:

1. The catholic school - known for good results and high expectations
2. The state school - known for teenage pregnancies and daily visits from the local police.

My mum decide that she couldn't afford to put her principles first. I am glad she didn't. I am too an atheist but I left school with a strong desire to continue with my education.

FWIW a higher proportion of people I knew who went to the state school are now lazy bums than those who went to the Catholic school. Now I realize this is not the norm. I work in a state school now and it is much better than the state education I was offered. What I am really saying is that it really depends on the individual school. 3rd best of 3 great schools is fine, 3rd best out of 3 satisfactory schools probably isn't ok. And... the state school that was offered to me has now closed down due to poor performance.

I will not be sending my child/ren to our local catholic school, or a church school, no matter how bloody awesome they are supposed to be. I am, however, very lucky that we have 4 good local schools which are not religious. Private school would never be an option for us financially, so it isn't something we worry about.

I don't think it is really putting your principles above your child's education unless you are sending your kids to a failing school just because you disagree with church education. If the non-religious school is good, then what's the worry? if it is shit, then maybe visit the other schools and see if any of them are acceptable?

I agree with shells and katemiddleton.

The "best" option is the school that meets all of your child's and your family's needs. That simple. Those needs can't just be answered with an OFSTED rating. Weighing up all the factors, what's your feeling?

And the school that is best for one child is often NOT the best choice for another.

If you feel like school #4 is best but are concerned about the curriculum, commit yourself to doing a bit of extra work with her at home. That's the biggest factor in academic success anyway - the home environment.

Have you visited the schools? That might confirm or make you question your impressions.

amuminscotland, great post.

YANBU. Do what you feel is right morally. Your children will grow up with the morals that you wish for them to have (hopefully), which I feel is at least as important as grades. The whole country appears to be obsessed with their children going to the best (poshest or best in the eyes of ofsted in their snapshot view) schools but not at all concerned about their children growing up to be well balanced individuals. Personally I made the choice to send my children to a school with a mix of society/class/abilities/SN and I think it is really good for them. I would hate my children to go to the local white middle class school where every single parent works in banking or has inherited their money, what view does that give them of the world? If they have the support and encouragement at home and the school isn't absolutely dire they will learn, but they will grow up to be totally aware and accepting of social/cultural differences.

I can appreciate how it would be extremely difficult for (say) a non-religious person choosing (say) between a good faith school and a crap non-faith primary, or someone who were ideologically opposed to private education choosing between a good private school and a crap state school.

Personally I would always try to give my principles first chance, but I would probably be prepared to change my mind if I could see that my child was really suffering as a result.

However you seem to be in a better position than that - the "fourth best" school, whilst not being religious, private or pretentious, is not dire either! So why not give the school a chance?

I'm lucky enough to live in an area where there is an outstanding Catholic primary (we are atheists) but also a "second best" primary which is not appallingly crap. So that's where my DS will be going. However, if we weren't lucky enough to have such a good second best I might well have compromised my principles. I'm glad I haven't had to do so and I wouldn't judge anyone for doing the same.

It's not ideal and it's not something I would ever attempt to dress up as anything other than compromising principles, but I can see why people do it. You put your children first in every area of your life. That's what parenting is about. I'd save my judgey pants for people who pretend that's not what they're doing, rent houses in the catchment, forge applications, or try an justify their compromise by saying it's only because their children are so particularly special / advanced / gifted (as though that somehow means they deserve a superior education compared to other kids).

I have done very well in life despite having the shit kicked out of me in a comprehensive school, although there are still a few bastards from those days I'd happily run over if the chance presented itself, I wouldn't go back and change schools. My parents offered to do so (would have meant a BIG compromise for them) but I quite rightly decided that kids at the local private school were probably just as likely to be vicious little bastards and I would still be the "weird kid". Ultimately I think that as a parent you can make a difference to your kid's education whatever school they go to, and you can also, hopefully, make a difference to the school itself.