To be dreadfully sad that in the 21st century child abuse seems to be part of the culture in a so-called modern, progressive and enlightened country like the USA

[Perriwinkle]

I've been watching a lot of American baby programmes on satellite TV lately and have been horrified and saddened to see how many parents, who appear to be loving, caring, very protective parents who are determined to everything right by their children, have their sons circumcised in hospital just before they bring them home.

These parents then get stressed and worried when these babies are what they describe as "fussy" (which I've gathered seems to mean a collection of things such as not feeding/sleeping/settling well and crying a lot). Clearly these poor babies are in huge discomfort, due to the barbaric and hugely invasive and unnecessary procedure that's been carried out on them.

When the parents are talking to camera about their early experiences of parenthood, how it has made them feel and what their hopes are for the future, they are all full of wanting to do the best for their child, to love, cherish and protect them and about being the best parents they possibly can for their child. This seems to be so at odds with giving consent for that child to have its genitals mutilated just a day or two earlier.

One woman I saw was talking about how she was in pieces when her son had to "get his first shots" as she called it (injections I assume?) yet she said nothing about his circumcision. I know that the vast majority have it done because when you see them changing nappies you know they have had it done because they have big wadge of gauze there to protect the wound site and you often hear them saying they have to be careful due to the circumcision. If only these parents could be educated to see that it is not in their child's best interests to have him circumcised, rather than thinking it is.

I really can't believe that this practice is still carried out as routinely and widely as it is in the USA even though there is no medical justification for it and no sound evidence to justify that it is in any way beneficial or more hygenic than leaving the baby intact.

What a shame that in many cases such clearly educated and rational people, who do not appear to have any religious imperative to carry out this barbaric practice are still doing this to their children in their droves. It means that millions of children are being subjected to this abusive practice on a daily basis in the USA.

Surely with proper education and information this could be turned around and this vile practive wiped out? I know having it done due to a religious imperative is a whole different argument but surely if non Jewish and Islamic people were properly informed and enlightened on the subject surely the incidence of this completely unneccessary abusive practice could be drastically reduced and in time eschewed by the overwhelming majority of parents?

I understand that routine non ritual circumcision was once a feature of many cultures but that it has successfully died out due to education and enlightenment. Wouldn't it be lovely to think the same could happen in the USA?

Aside from being sheep minded why would people in the USA get it done?

I know if a magic man says you must then you're already that way inclined, to blindly follow ritual without thought. Are all Americans that go along without it that stupid? (I think not but you have to wonder why)

Because you're lying there knackered having just given birth, and a medical professional is telling you it is best for X,Y, and Z and your new DS won't be in pain, and every penis you've ever seen in RL or pictures has been circumcised so it doesn't strike you as odd, I suppose?

Posies I am not American but I find your post really offensive and bigoted.

Whoa. I think highly of my American friends, each is much better educated than I. I was merely wondering aside from sheep like mentality, which is pretty unquestioning (much like most cultural norms), what drives people to go along with this. I know it stems from the whole thou shalt not wank school of thought, but it seems odd that a nation as huge as the US goes along with it.

(I am a pretty offensive and out spoken poster but CY had just declared she was American, and I like CY, I don't think I'd be so directly rude)

Sheeplike mentality is exactly the point but it's not their fault. As the woman says, if every picture you've ever seen of a penis is a circumcised one and even physicians are telling you it's all for the best it's bound to be the case that you'll think it's normal and that you'd actually be mad or bad not to agree to it. Education and enlightenment can change all that though. It's absolutely non sensical to cut perfectly functional bits off a newborn baby's body for no reason. The sooner the penny drops and people in the USA have been educated to acknowledge and accept this, as they have here in the UK, the better and the incidence of this uneccessary abuse can start to decline.

Then only the religious crackpots will be left doing it.

StealthPenguin you said:

"And just because someone doesn't subscribe to your point of view you think that they "don't know any better". How arrogant. It just means they can make up their own minds."

Of course he doesn't know any better. He had no chance to "make up his own mind" about it did he? That decison was made for him when all he expected adults to do was protect him and keep him for harm. What chance did that baby ever have to make up his own mind about whether he wanted a part of his body that was intended to be there cut off?

And yes people do feel strongly about this issue and why shouldn't they? And yes it does piss me off that people don't agree with me on this issue and that's simply because I think it's immoral to make babies suffer unnecessarily. It annoys me to think that other people just shrug about it and say "so what? nobody died".

I have to say that if anyone here is arrogant, it's you with your patronising snarky posts that try to belittle and demean the feelings of others who care deeply about this issue and actually have the moral fibre to speak out against it.

Like I said before, some primary care trusts fund routine newborn circumcision for patients who request it. Google it if you don't believe me. I was gong to post a link but still haven't worked out how to do that on iPad. Really some of you should check your facts before ranting...

Then only the religious crackpots will be left doing it

So that's two major world religions told then

Thanks Stealth - am not new. I rarely enter into the bunfights on here, but don't like to stand by and see a whole nation of people, plus millions of Jewish and Muslim people maligned for this practise.
Maths also makes a good point about how female circumsision is very different from male circumsision.

Perriwinkle, why don't you taste your own medicine for a change and educate yourself by reading the dozens of studies that point to the health benefits of circumcision, instead of harping on and on about it being "nonsensical"?

Really, what is not sheeplike in your attitude? You know nothing about circumcision but because it is not the norm here then it must be barbaric. And if someone disagrees with you then they must be ignorant. You are the one that is prejudiced and you are refusing to confront your prejudice to the facts, despite many posters with hands on evidence offering their informed point of view. You just won't listen. Have you been brainwashed against circumcision? If not, can you see the weakness in your implication that anyone who disagrees with you has?

Oh, and calling all Muslims and Jewish people "religious crackpots" is not exactly doing you any favours.

If it pisses you off that people don't agree wih you, don't post in AIBU.

So in answer to your OP: YABU.

There are both Muslims and Jews that don't subscribe to this, so religious crackpot may just be hurled at ones that do. And from a parent that doesn't harm her children because God told me to, it's perfectly reasonable to think parents that do are crackpots.

And the health benefits are bullshit in a first world country, absolute bullshit.

No it may not be hurled - a handful of Muslims and Jews don't circumcise so the rest are crackpots? And why hurl anyway?

The idea that someone can be branded a crackpot (1) because of having religious beliefs and (2) because those beliefs do not coincide with yours is just about the most unreasonable thing I've read here on this silly thread.

Oh come on, think about it from a parent's POV that doesn't harm their child by lopping a bit of their penis off. It is madness. You must be able to see it from an outsider's POV. To harm your own child because it says in a book that you should is crackpot.

30% of all men are circumcised. That's a heck of a lot of crackpots out there.

Harm? I think that is the crux of the opposing povs here.

You believe without much evidence that there is 'harm' while millions who have been circumcised would look at you with eyebrows raised, shrug and get on with their perfectly ordinary, unaffected lives.

I think a bit of 'seeing it from an outsider's pov' might be very good for many on this thread. There is a huge amount of ethnocentrism at play here, and it is quite a sight to behold.

Madness? Doing something because 'it says in a book'? -- blithe dismissal of religion and history and the social context in which circumcised boys are being brought up is a problem here, not a sign of enlightenment.

But for people who don't believe in God, that's what religion is, you can understand that can't you?

Ethnocentric is poppycock. Cutting bits off a baby doesn't have to be cultural, all this cultural relativism is just a way of making shitty things okay. When you look at the bare facts and see circumcision purely as an act, it does cause harm and it is unnecessary.

It is not okay to cut bits off of a baby.

Even for those of us (Americans, I mean) who do believe in God (I am one), it's not necessarily about that. When my DS was circumcised I didn't think of God at all. As I said, I was supremely knackered (having just given birth), had suffered terrible depression throughout my last trimester, and a very articulate, take-charge pediatrician was standing by my bedside telling me that this was absolutely the best choice, and add to that that the only penises I had ever seen (not so terribly many but more than a few ) had been circumcised. All of my lovers had been. My husband was. I worked in a nursery and changed hundreds of diapers, and I remember 3 uncircumcised boys. That's it.

So for me, it wasn't about God, it was just What Is Done. Next time, it will not be what is done as I will refuse.

I had my 3rd child here in the States. I had to explain myself to nurses and a doctor exactly why I DIDN'T want my son circumcised. I had to sign forms saying it was not to happen. I was even asked if it was for religious reasons! So I would agree it is wide spread here, and of my friends with boys, at least 70% of them had their boys snipped. Many regret it now they are older and realise it wasn't necessary. Others think it is cleaner looking and see nothing wrong with it.

Y'know, there's plenty of actual REAL child abuse going on IRL, so why don't you first focus on eradicating that before turning your hand to something that has been done for centuries and is now done safely and medically without risk to the infant? This whole thread is a bit bonkers

For you, who don't believe in God, that's perhaps all that religion is, but there are plenty of other people who do not believe in God yet have enough sense of what is appropriate when it comes to describing other people's motivations to not dismiss so blithely what others may hold dear. You don't even seem to be able to give credit to your fellow non-believers for the respectful attitude many of them have to those who have a religious belief system or imagine that they may not all be as prone to derision of the beliefs of others as you are. It really is extremely ethnocentric, and cultural-centric too, to assert as you do that your argument is right, end of, and everyone else's beliefs and practices are madness, abusive, cruel, or whatever, and that all other non-believers feel the same as you. The little phrase IMO might be very useful for you.

I know a lot of Americans who never once darkened the door of any kind of church who had been circumcised themselves, and whose DSs were circumcised, and whose DGSs will probably be circumcised. The decision I made with my exH to have DS circumcised was based on medical advice that seemed to make sense, including advice from exFIL and exBIL, both doctors. Nobody insisted, I wasn't groggy. DS recovered with no side effects. Taking care of him post op was straightforward.

That was very well said, Math.

I had my 3rd child here in the States this year and was also asked whether he was to be circumcised. I said no and was quite surprised to even be asked. The nurse said that it was common but much more so in the Midwest than in Oregon. Purely anecdotal, obviously. I don't think the OP's aggressive tone towards anyone who disagrees does her argument any credit at all. Math's posts are very good.

So if God requested you cut off your little finger at 30 do you think jews and Muslims would still do it? Like so many other religious practices that have vanished as people have moved forward. It's only because it's a baby that everyone is okay. It's disgusting. Parents that do it disgust me, they wouldn't punch their babies but they will cut them.

I don't think anyone assumed that all Americans would be jewish or Muslim. We know that they do it for no good reason, like everyone else.

And I don't have to justify why I don't agree with cutting my child. And you're not convincing me that it's not cruel to inflict pain on your tiny baby, I hope you felt sorry as he cried and then his penis scabbed.

MathsAnxiety people can believe whatever they want to believe as far as I'm concerned. I'm cool with that as long as they don't ram it down my throat or expect me to respect it as a matter of course when I think it's patent nonsense.

People should not however, IMHO, ever be allowed by law to use their "beliefs", whatever they may be, as justification for harming other people and abusing children.

You decided to give consent to allow your own child's genitals to be mutilated for no good reason on medical advice. As I said, with a proper programame of education, gradually more and more parents in the USA would feel comfortable with eschewing the whole barbaric and vile procedure because they would learn that it is as totally unneccessary as it is immoral.

It might take a generation but it would eventually die out until, as I said before, only the religious crackpots, who take their lead from texts that were written before the dark ages, would be left doing it. Hopefully legislation could then be passed to see them locked up for doing it too.

As I said, it beggars belief that in a first world country like America which claims to be enlightened, modern, progressive and liberal, that this unspeakably vile and barbaric act is still perpetrated on an industrial scale.