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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To be dreadfully sad that in the 21st century child abuse seems to be part of the culture in a so-called modern, progressive and enlightened country like the USA

353 replies

Perriwinkle · 20/11/2011 22:39

I've been watching a lot of American baby programmes on satellite TV lately and have been horrified and saddened to see how many parents, who appear to be loving, caring, very protective parents who are determined to everything right by their children, have their sons circumcised in hospital just before they bring them home.

These parents then get stressed and worried when these babies are what they describe as "fussy" (which I've gathered seems to mean a collection of things such as not feeding/sleeping/settling well and crying a lot). Clearly these poor babies are in huge discomfort, due to the barbaric and hugely invasive and unnecessary procedure that's been carried out on them.

When the parents are talking to camera about their early experiences of parenthood, how it has made them feel and what their hopes are for the future, they are all full of wanting to do the best for their child, to love, cherish and protect them and about being the best parents they possibly can for their child. This seems to be so at odds with giving consent for that child to have its genitals mutilated just a day or two earlier.

One woman I saw was talking about how she was in pieces when her son had to "get his first shots" as she called it (injections I assume?) yet she said nothing about his circumcision. I know that the vast majority have it done because when you see them changing nappies you know they have had it done because they have big wadge of gauze there to protect the wound site and you often hear them saying they have to be careful due to the circumcision. If only these parents could be educated to see that it is not in their child's best interests to have him circumcised, rather than thinking it is.

I really can't believe that this practice is still carried out as routinely and widely as it is in the USA even though there is no medical justification for it and no sound evidence to justify that it is in any way beneficial or more hygenic than leaving the baby intact.

What a shame that in many cases such clearly educated and rational people, who do not appear to have any religious imperative to carry out this barbaric practice are still doing this to their children in their droves. It means that millions of children are being subjected to this abusive practice on a daily basis in the USA.

Surely with proper education and information this could be turned around and this vile practive wiped out? I know having it done due to a religious imperative is a whole different argument but surely if non Jewish and Islamic people were properly informed and enlightened on the subject surely the incidence of this completely unneccessary abusive practice could be drastically reduced and in time eschewed by the overwhelming majority of parents?

I understand that routine non ritual circumcision was once a feature of many cultures but that it has successfully died out due to education and enlightenment. Wouldn't it be lovely to think the same could happen in the USA?

OP posts:
ScroteyMcBoogerBaubles · 20/11/2011 23:08

Yanbu - routinely yes it's abuse

Yabu - for being a snotty arse with Memoo. You brought up a contentious issue and used the words " child abuse ". people in her position will feel defensive, reactionary. Have a bit of fucking patience.

FaverollesWithBoughsOfHolly · 20/11/2011 23:09

My DS was circumcised for medical reasons. I do not understand why anyone would have this done unless it is absolutely necessary.
IMO just because it's legal doesn't make it ok, and having seen the pain my DS suffered, I would call it child abuse too.

Perriwinkle · 20/11/2011 23:11

There will always be people like helpmabob here who dismiss the things that people like me say out of hand. However, I am yet to see one argument that holds water to support the view that routine non essential (i.e not justified on medical grounds) male genital mutilation (be it ritual or non ritual) is not child abuse.

So any one who thinks they have one, argue away.

OP posts:
WorraLiberty · 20/11/2011 23:12

Marital rape is legal in quite a few countries too...so it's not abuse as long as it's not against the law? Confused

Perriwinkle · 20/11/2011 23:15

ScroteyMcBoogerBaubles I think that Memoo and I have both said our piece now so no need for you to get involved. And certainly no need for foul language.

OP posts:
Whatmeworry · 20/11/2011 23:17

Agrees with Pendeen and Scrotes.

DamnBamboo · 20/11/2011 23:18

OP YADNBU.
I have three boys and would only do this out of an absolutely medical necessity.

Scrotey Memoo started the aggression first, read her posts.

Moving along then...

shineynewthings · 20/11/2011 23:19

YABU.

I do think we are great in the west in terms of us really trying hard to stamp out child abuse, but honestly, it's as though once we feel we've started getting a grip on beating, sexual abuse etc, we have to extend the net to cover anything and everything that hurts or upsets a child.

Of course it's not nice to see a child crying after a circumcision, but they really don't suffer life-long trauma and children have more Vitamin K in their blood when they are about 8 days old. They never have that much again, thus it is safer to have the op when they are babies.

We in the west are in danger of softening up our children too much i think,the world is changing, and really, we need to not try and live in this bubble where everyone in every culture bends to our ideas of child abuse and conforms to our standards.

Within reason obviously.

Pendeen · 20/11/2011 23:20

OP I agree with you that, unless the operation is for strictly medical reasons then it is completely unnaceptable.

So-called cultural or religious excuses are laughable.

I know the Americans allow it but does anyone know if this is tolerated in the UK?

DamnBamboo · 20/11/2011 23:21

I'm sorry, cutting off a large (relatively speaking) bit of skin from a newborn for NO reason at all, is abusive.
What else would you call it?

Softening them up ... am I reading this right?

runningwilde · 20/11/2011 23:21

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by Mumsnet.

Pendeen · 20/11/2011 23:21

unacceptable

Perriwinkle · 20/11/2011 23:22

FaverollesWithBoughsOfHolly your views are the views expressed by a lot of people who have had to go through this with their sons for sound and justifiable medical reasons. I have a few freinds who have found the whole experience of nursing their sons back to full health very harrowing and heartbreaking. You're right that no one in their right mind would want to put their son through this without a very good reason for doing so to make their child better when there was very clearly a problem. I hope your son is OK now.

I'm sure that these millions of caring prents in the USA who consent to having this done to thier sons routinely before knowing that there is any problem would never dream of putting their newborn sons though this either if they had the right education and inforamtion to make them see that it was totally unnecessary.

If a problem is identified that needs correcting through circumcision that's one thing but to have it done routinely just after birth is just wrong. Most sane and rational people see that I'm sure - provided they're given the chance to.

OP posts:
MumblingAndBloodyRagDoll · 20/11/2011 23:24

YANBU who made these people think they know better than nature or GOD! We're designed pretty well perfectly...and yet they persist in saying foreskins are extraneous.

Tell that to my DH who is ENORMOUSLY sorry he was cut...he wants it back!

ScroteyMcBoogerBaubles · 20/11/2011 23:24

Oh for Gods sake. I agreed with you! Did you miss that bit? To routinely cut bits from babies with no medical reason is abuse. I would think that's quite obvious. It's akin to chopping off their earlobe or little toe. Unnecessary and barbaric. Utterly disgusting that it's legal.

I'll have my opinion and I'll use the the language I please.

SirBoobAlot · 20/11/2011 23:24

Doesn't do any life long damage? Tell that to the thousands of men who suffer body image issues after ops gone wrong, mental health concerns steming from the fact that someone cut off part of their body, erectile dsyfunction, lack of orgasam, and a hundred other problems physical and mental.

Memoo · 20/11/2011 23:25

What did i say that was aggressive or rude?

And no i am not Mitmoo.

ItWasABoojum · 20/11/2011 23:26

YANBU. There was a thread a while ago about people having baby girls' ears pierced and I think the same issues raise their heads here. Yes, there are much, much worse things than unnecessary circumcision, but it's part of a general belief that a child is somehow your property, and that because their body is under your control you have a say in what happens to it. It would be barbaric to strap down a 20-year-old man and do this to him - why is it any less so when he is a baby?

MumblingAndBloodyRagDoll · 20/11/2011 23:26

It's not comparible to injections shineynewthings it's chopping a bit OFF not putting something in which can help a baby grow strong.

Removing a piece of a perfect human is shockingly arrogant and hould be illegal unless it's medically needed.

Whatmeworry · 20/11/2011 23:26

I didn't do it to my boys, but I do think extending the term "child abuse" to the practice is way OTT. Its seemingly a fashion thing, my parents generation thought it was healthy, now its an anathema in some circles it seems, in 30 years time who knows.

MumblingAndBloodyRagDoll · 20/11/2011 23:28

SirBoob is right....there are many men, my DH included who resent the loss of ther foreskin and it does make a difference sexually....the ones which are intact are far better.

DamnBamboo · 20/11/2011 23:28

And how dare you call me acting in the best interest of my son abuse!

Pretty aggressive if you ask me (OP daring to express opinion, which isn't even aimed at people like you)

'How dare you' is very confrontational!

DamnBamboo · 20/11/2011 23:28

Last post to Memoo

EricNorthmansMistress · 20/11/2011 23:28

Memoo really is not mitmoo.

I stated it is it abuse because it does not fit the definition of abuse. It causes discomfort during the healing process but not serious pain, and the procedure is (usually) done under anaesthetic. It is a one off action, not prolonged and damaging physical assault. It has proven health benefits and negligible risks. It does not qualify as abuse.
I'm not trying to argue that it's a great idea, or harmless, or painless- but just objecting to your definition which IMO is inaccurate and exaggerated.

WorraLiberty · 20/11/2011 23:28

shineynewthings

Do you agree with female genital mutilation?

I mean, do you think anyone who thinks it's barbaric should toughen up too?

Genuine question by the way.