To be dreadfully sad that in the 21st century child abuse seems to be part of the culture in a so-called modern, progressive and enlightened country like the USA

[Perriwinkle]

I've been watching a lot of American baby programmes on satellite TV lately and have been horrified and saddened to see how many parents, who appear to be loving, caring, very protective parents who are determined to everything right by their children, have their sons circumcised in hospital just before they bring them home.

These parents then get stressed and worried when these babies are what they describe as "fussy" (which I've gathered seems to mean a collection of things such as not feeding/sleeping/settling well and crying a lot). Clearly these poor babies are in huge discomfort, due to the barbaric and hugely invasive and unnecessary procedure that's been carried out on them.

When the parents are talking to camera about their early experiences of parenthood, how it has made them feel and what their hopes are for the future, they are all full of wanting to do the best for their child, to love, cherish and protect them and about being the best parents they possibly can for their child. This seems to be so at odds with giving consent for that child to have its genitals mutilated just a day or two earlier.

One woman I saw was talking about how she was in pieces when her son had to "get his first shots" as she called it (injections I assume?) yet she said nothing about his circumcision. I know that the vast majority have it done because when you see them changing nappies you know they have had it done because they have big wadge of gauze there to protect the wound site and you often hear them saying they have to be careful due to the circumcision. If only these parents could be educated to see that it is not in their child's best interests to have him circumcised, rather than thinking it is.

I really can't believe that this practice is still carried out as routinely and widely as it is in the USA even though there is no medical justification for it and no sound evidence to justify that it is in any way beneficial or more hygenic than leaving the baby intact.

What a shame that in many cases such clearly educated and rational people, who do not appear to have any religious imperative to carry out this barbaric practice are still doing this to their children in their droves. It means that millions of children are being subjected to this abusive practice on a daily basis in the USA.

Surely with proper education and information this could be turned around and this vile practive wiped out? I know having it done due to a religious imperative is a whole different argument but surely if non Jewish and Islamic people were properly informed and enlightened on the subject surely the incidence of this completely unneccessary abusive practice could be drastically reduced and in time eschewed by the overwhelming majority of parents?

I understand that routine non ritual circumcision was once a feature of many cultures but that it has successfully died out due to education and enlightenment. Wouldn't it be lovely to think the same could happen in the USA?

Insurance in comparison to mutilating a baby?

One is just a direct debit.

Stealth do you still have your breasts? Only you could lop them off just in case.

And one is just two tablets. And chopping my breasts off doesn't stop cancer as a whole, so that's just you being bloody-minded. While we're at it, you'd have to have your brain removed (......), heart, lungs, etc. They can't live without them, they can live without a bloody flap of skin.

Are you this iffy about picking a blister? MY GOD, THINK OF THE SKIN YOU'RE LOSING!

ThruAGlassDarkly - unfortunately you're always going to find people who can't help but be judgy. It's the rules of Mumsnet (and incidentally, if you're new then welcome!)

There are threads claiming that people are "furious and livid" at someone taking the last shopping trolley. There are threads that use a completely innocuous phrase like "is my neighbour mental?" and you get people screaming that you're being an inconsiderate racist bitch because the phrase "mental" could be insulting to people with mental health issues. There are threads equating bottle-feeding to bitch-slapping your newborn baby with a fishtank as it's so detrimental to their health. There are threads denouncing you as a bad mother because you decide to follow the Health Visitors advice and start your child on solids early. There are threads claiming that while youmust at every possibility take advantage of free childcare, you are being bloody minded and a gigantic bitch if you expect it. If someone turns up at a party without a present, you're told that you're a grabby cunt who doesn't deserve to be spawning children left right and centre.

This. Is. Mumsnet.

And in regards to Breast Cancer - I've been tested for the gene, and found I didn't have it. So therefore I'm not more likely to get breast cancer. Therefore if I did choose to lop my tits off then it would just be self mutilation. But hey, everyone is ok with people mutilating themselves, right? As long as they are given the choice?

Tell that to a self-harmer and see how much good it does them.

Oh, and even if someone DID decide to be circumcised as an adult, people like you are STILL going to bitch and whine about dodgy "practices" that shouldn't be allowed and how it's "self abuse", and that they must obviously just be depressed and stressed and bipolar and suicidal because there is just no other reason you can comprehend to have it done.

Thruaglassdarkly

Of course I (and others) can judge those who advocate a wholly unnecessary operation on spurious cultural or religious grounds as being wrong.

Take all the offence you like.

And does anyone here have their tonsils removed? If so, why?Because thats another "wholly unnecessary" operation! It doesn't matter if you suffer tonsillitis every year for the next century, it's UNNECESSARY I TELL YOU.

Mumbling, why do you keep saying there is no reason to have it done, when I and other posters have referred to lots of evidence that it:

• reduces the risk of catching aids by 60%
• significantly lowers the risk of catching herpes
• significantly lowers the risk of catching HPV
• reduces to nil the risk of penile cancer
• reduces to almost nil the risk of infant UTI?

I understand you may perform the risk/benefit analysis for yourself, in your personal circumstances, and decide the risks do not outweigh the benefits - I am fine with that. But how can you say there are NO benefits, when this flies in the face of all the scientific evidence? I just don't get it.

(Sorry, should have said the was in response to penguin's ramblings.)

My ramblings? Oh, I'm sorry, you mean my clear, well-thought-out opinion that no-one has bothered to properly reply to? Namely because you can't?

I'm putting forth my opinion and I'm getting heartily sick of being told I'm wrong without being told WHY I'm wrong.

You can't just sit there, saying random words like "wrong!" and "abuse" and "unfounded".

Primafacie - because some people will always think they know best, and therefore are entitled to say what they like in order to convert others to the Daily Mail way of life.

Sanctimonious, self-righteous twaddle. Quite a screed, OP.

'...holier than thou ideology, based on no more fact than their belief is.'
I agree with this, from WhatMe, and also with Hester's comments.

DS was circumcised, in the US, and [gasp] has never had a problem of any sort, nor has he ever complained, nor did he have any fussiness or sleep problems above and beyond what you would normally expect with a baby.

Shrug.

I will never stop judging the likes of you Thruaglassdarkly. Never.

Sadly, I can only judge the likes of you though. If I had evidence that someone else had perpetrated such a vile and henious act as mulilating a baby's genitals I could report them to the Police, secure in the knowledge that they'd be locked up, hopefully for a very long time, for doing it.

The fact that the abuse of newborn babies in the USA is perpetrated on an institutionalised industrial scale, behind the doors of sanitised hospitals, and that Rabbis and other Islamic men are doing it does not make it right.

If you think that subscribing to that view makes mad or a racist then so be it. I know I am neither.

Unneccesary circumcision carried out without medical justification is a procedure that should not outlawed worldwide for the single solitary reason that it is barbaric, cruel, unneccessary and a gross infringement of the human rights of the child who has no one to advocate for it.

There should be the universal condemnation of unneccessary ritual and non ritual male genital mutilation that there is of female genital mutiulation. There should be no distinction. It is all vile, it is all abusive and it is all unneccessary.

It's a crime that parents are brainwashed into thinking that this is the best thing to do for their children, when it so clearly is not.

As for your husband laughing. Poor chap, he knows no better does he? I'm sure that if I'd had my earlobes lopped off when I was 2 days old I'd have learned to live without them by now because I'd have no recollection of a life with them. Do you think it would be OK to do that to all babies?

I'm sure that if I'd had my earlobes lopped off when I was 2 days old I'd have learned to live without them by now because I'd have no recollection of a life with them. Do you think it would be OK to do that to all babies?

As long as it stops people piercing babies' ears. :o

And just because someone doesn't subscribe to your point of view you think that they "don't know any better". How arrogant. It just means they can make up their own minds, without being seething and vicious. And here I thought religion preached tolerance to others?!

And on the subject of female genital mutilation --
As a feminist I find it offensive that a minor surgical procedure that has very insignificant side effects or even none at all (the debate is ongoing) would be compared to a procedure whose aim and effect is to ruin a woman's chance of ever achieving sexual satisfaction, and I think those who see a clear link between male circumcision and fgm, seeing the shadow of the patriarchy in both, have had the wool well and truly pulled over their eyes by the 'what about the menz?' brigade.

(I have seen claims that HIV transmission is reduced by circumcision by as much as 60% in pilot programmes in Africa, incidentally -- surely a good thing for the women formerly in the firing line, so to speak, for risk of contracting HIV through heterosexual sex. Does this make circumcision as a preventative measure against HIV a feminist issue? I think it does.)

Yes, arrogant is another good adjective here.

it is a practice the NHS deems unnecessary and without good reason and is something that they (quite rightly) choose not to pay for

Quite right - give people a choice, as I have been advocating. I note the NHS is not going to make it illegal anytime soon, nor bring in the Social to remove the child as the parents are abusive.

You are actually quite ignorant and can't make a coherent, reasoned argument. You prove it time and time again with your attempt at personal attacks and completely speculative posts. I don't need to try and make you look stupid, you are doing a grand job of it yourself.

You know that when the Ad Hominems start.....

Indeed whatme if you need to call me racist, morally superior and state what you think my opinion of abortion is to help your case, then yes, I certainly agree with your above point re Ad Hominems

Lets just agree to disagree shall we.

I shall tell my (Jewish) father about my purported racial and religious intolerance; he will laugh as I have done.

Stealth recurrent tonsilitis can cause long-term kidney problems, pneumatic fever, septicaemia, to name a few.
I wouldn't say that removing them if you suffer from recurrent tonsilitis is unnecessary.

Everybody's a doctor now I see!

Periwinkle - have only just stopped laughing at your hysterical post to me. (You obviously read the bit when I said I didn't think I'd have a son of mine done.) You're impossible to take seriously with that tirade. Thanks for the laugh.

And I think you'll find that the education system in the States is pretty good. People are generally not brainwashed.

I actually did not want my son done. But I was completely out of it and the doctor was insistent, whisked him out of the room, and had it done.

He is fine. He wasn't fussy and was a happy little baby. Every man/boy I know is American, and I can only think of a few that are uncircumcised (that I know of).

I am not an abusive parent by any means and my son is fine. However, any future DS of mine will not have it done. I'll stand my ground.