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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To be dreadfully sad that in the 21st century child abuse seems to be part of the culture in a so-called modern, progressive and enlightened country like the USA

353 replies

Perriwinkle · 20/11/2011 22:39

I've been watching a lot of American baby programmes on satellite TV lately and have been horrified and saddened to see how many parents, who appear to be loving, caring, very protective parents who are determined to everything right by their children, have their sons circumcised in hospital just before they bring them home.

These parents then get stressed and worried when these babies are what they describe as "fussy" (which I've gathered seems to mean a collection of things such as not feeding/sleeping/settling well and crying a lot). Clearly these poor babies are in huge discomfort, due to the barbaric and hugely invasive and unnecessary procedure that's been carried out on them.

When the parents are talking to camera about their early experiences of parenthood, how it has made them feel and what their hopes are for the future, they are all full of wanting to do the best for their child, to love, cherish and protect them and about being the best parents they possibly can for their child. This seems to be so at odds with giving consent for that child to have its genitals mutilated just a day or two earlier.

One woman I saw was talking about how she was in pieces when her son had to "get his first shots" as she called it (injections I assume?) yet she said nothing about his circumcision. I know that the vast majority have it done because when you see them changing nappies you know they have had it done because they have big wadge of gauze there to protect the wound site and you often hear them saying they have to be careful due to the circumcision. If only these parents could be educated to see that it is not in their child's best interests to have him circumcised, rather than thinking it is.

I really can't believe that this practice is still carried out as routinely and widely as it is in the USA even though there is no medical justification for it and no sound evidence to justify that it is in any way beneficial or more hygenic than leaving the baby intact.

What a shame that in many cases such clearly educated and rational people, who do not appear to have any religious imperative to carry out this barbaric practice are still doing this to their children in their droves. It means that millions of children are being subjected to this abusive practice on a daily basis in the USA.

Surely with proper education and information this could be turned around and this vile practive wiped out? I know having it done due to a religious imperative is a whole different argument but surely if non Jewish and Islamic people were properly informed and enlightened on the subject surely the incidence of this completely unneccessary abusive practice could be drastically reduced and in time eschewed by the overwhelming majority of parents?

I understand that routine non ritual circumcision was once a feature of many cultures but that it has successfully died out due to education and enlightenment. Wouldn't it be lovely to think the same could happen in the USA?

OP posts:
Perriwinkle · 24/11/2011 15:38

Posies no one should have to justify why they don't agree with unneccessary ritual and non ritual circumcision for which their is no medical justification. Any sane and rational individual knows that it is wrong.

It is for the people who do agree with it to justify why they do and I am yet to hear one single solitary sound justification for it. Will I ever? No because there is not one.

None of the following qualify as adequate justifications:

The doctor who delievered him told me I should get him done rightaway.

It will make his willy look the same as his Dad's/Brother's.
He will fit in with his peers.
It means God will love him.
It will make him a good Muslim/Jew.

Everyone in my culture does it.

It's more hygienic.

It is wrong in any language and any culture and code of ethics.

End of.

OP posts:
Whatmeworry · 24/11/2011 15:46

Orright Periwinkle, you go and make it illegal dear, you probably do have a slim chance in the Bible Belt if you say its part of Intelligent Design to have an unsnipped willy.

PosiesOfPoinsettia · 24/11/2011 16:16

I just may start an online petition to make it illegal.

PosiesOfPoinsettia · 24/11/2011 16:17

Wmw there are states where it's illegal.

Andrewofgg · 24/11/2011 16:18

Posies where is there a non-dictatorship where it is illegal - especially where it is a religious custom?

Whatmeworry · 24/11/2011 16:43

Wmw there are states where it's illegal

Name them.

That you will say any sort of sh*t to back your pov even if it totally untrue says it all.

Driftwood999 · 24/11/2011 17:09

I think this is an interesting thread, I've only read the first 2 pages and skimmed a bit. Putting religion to the side for the moment, I think there is some justification in the claim that circumcision is more hygienic. Just think, the practice originated in hot climates and would have been widely promoted by priests/the wise. This has probably been said already. Little boys do get infections (our little boy had it once but it cleared) and can be hugely problematic/painful. A friend that is a nurse has stated that it is often poor hygiene that causes problems later on when they are older and aware. How much kinder therefore to deal with it after the first week of life or so? It takes time, effort and of course luck to train a little boy to clean his penis beyond the time that the parent/carer does it. In an ideal world that should be the case. Our son is uncircumcised, but my dh is, as that was the norm at the time. They instruct new recruits to the army on how to clean themselves properly, infection is a risk and so I personallybelieve that circumcision is a cultural practice confused with religion for the best of reasons. It is definitely not abuse, as someone said, otherwise it would be illegal.

Perriwinkle · 24/11/2011 21:09

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mathanxiety · 25/11/2011 03:35

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CheerfulYank · 25/11/2011 03:43

There are no states where circumcision is illegal, Posies .

OP more and more people are choosing to forgo it in the States, I believe. I know a woman with children my DS' age who is very committed to "genital integrity" and works hard to end it. I'm sure it will die out eventually in the sense of "this is just what's done" and it will be only the deeply religious who still have it done. (As in devout Jews and Muslims, I mean)

CheerfulYank · 25/11/2011 03:46

But I am not an abusive parent. Hmm

Whatmeworry · 25/11/2011 07:08

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StealthPenguin · 25/11/2011 07:41

Oh, I get it now! This whole thing is meant to be SARCASTIC!

Seriously. Take the thread title...

"To be dreadfully sad that in the 21st century "child abuse" seems to be part of the culture in a so-called modern, progressive and enlightened country like the USA Hmm"

SEE? It's all just sarcasm. Although I think you'd make your point better, OP, if you made use of the emoticons. That way people could tell you were taking the piss :o

PosiesOfPoinsettia · 25/11/2011 11:48

Clearly mistaken, confused illegal with reduced practice. Apologies.

Primafacie · 25/11/2011 11:50

Mathanxiety :o

Seriously, the amount of misinformation on this thread is baffling.

I don't think I can be bothered anymore.

PosiesOfPoinsettia · 25/11/2011 11:50

There is talk of trying to make it illegal, I wish the campaigners all the luck in the world.Smile

PosiesOfPoinsettia · 25/11/2011 11:52

Lots of laughter from those who do cut their children, I might try to lift my mood by pinching my three year old so hard he bruises. After all he won't notice after a week...... No harm done. Hmm

PosiesOfPoinsettia · 25/11/2011 11:55

And if you look at circumcision in Australia I am delighted to say parents are done for assault. There are many countries that outlaw this assault on children. So Biscuit

PosiesOfPoinsettia · 25/11/2011 11:58

In August 2010 an eight day old boy was circumcised in a Florida hospital against the stated wishes of the parents. The hospital admitted that the boy was circumcised by mistake, but the mother has sued the hospital and the doctor involved in the case.

PosiesOfPoinsettia · 25/11/2011 11:58

In March 2009 a Fulton County, Ga., State Court jury awarded $2.3 million in damages to a 4-year-old boy and his mother for a botched circumcision in which too much tissue was removed causing permanent disfigurement.

CoteDAzur · 25/11/2011 12:06

YABU. Wheel your neck in, or if you can't, find some real abuse to get outraged about.

As someone else said, if it were child abuse, it would be illegal.

PosiesOfPoinsettia · 25/11/2011 12:16

It's wind your neck in.

There's always more serious whatever going on that does not mean objecting to and working toward banning this assault isn't worth doing.

PosiesOfPoinsettia · 25/11/2011 12:17

I am sure I will see it banned in my life time.

Whatmeworry · 25/11/2011 12:23

And if you look at circumcision in Australia I am delighted to say parents are done for assault

No they are not, some have hypothesised it could be abuse and technically people could be prosecuted, but no one has been and the police won't. Australia does not allow circumcision outside of medical or religious reasons and there are already lobbies trying to overturn this and make it choice based.

What is being prosecuted worldwide is botched/amateur jobs, typically done without due care or with untrained staff.

Why do you carry on spouting all this shit, we can all do the research ourselves on Google in an instant.

What interests me more is the rise of these global pressure groups to stop circumcision despite evidence of far larger abuse issues.

I suppose the attraction is it's a simple target and you can get funding from frothers, whereas stopping real abuse is complicated, convoluted and requires lots of different things to happen - not what a lobby-on-the make likes.

PosiesOfPoinsettia · 25/11/2011 12:34

Only 5 in 100 boys are cut in Oz. one father was done for GBH and it's banned in hospitals..... Google is my friend.

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