to confiscate her bank card?

[WongaWoman]

Today I opened the October bank statement of my eldest DD (19) and was horrified to discover that she was overdrawn by £280, had been charged nearly £90 in authorised and unauthorised overdraft charges, had accrued over £40 so far this month in charges, and she had received a payday loan of £100 from a well known online payday loan company earlier in October.

She is only on apprentice pay of £2.60 per hour! I have now nearly killed myself to pay off her payday loan and overdraft. With back up from my DH I have confiscated her bank card until I get all my money back as I thought it was the cheapest option for her. She was in floods of tears tonight in embarrassment and at losing her independence.

I don't really know what else I could have done. AIBU?

I'm sure that Xenia can cope and I wouldn't call it bullying.
I am not prepared to sit quietly by while she makes assumptions that all comprehensive schools are like the worst she sees on TV. In my area they are excellent and there are no selective state schools so people use the comprehensive or pay and many of those who could pay don't because they can get the same for free.
There is the terrible assumption that if your DC has to go to a comprehensive they won't be allowed to work, they will be sneered at or even bullied if they want to work and labelled a 'geek' if clever. I can't shout it enough for her to take a blind bit of notice -IT IS NOT TRUE.
I have nothing against private schools, there might be times that I would use them but, where I live, I wouldn't pay if I could afford it.
My DSs are all doing their first choice of career. Had they gone to Eton they wouldn't have made a different choice.
My job choice was not motivated by money. I wasn't led 'like a lamb to the slaughter' to teaching. It is a hugely rewarding job.Many people change from a high profile job in the city to teaching because they find it gives more satisfaction.
Medical careers of any sort are out for me, but if I had to choose one it would be on the caring side and I would far rather be a nurse than a brain surgeon. If you can class it in that line I would choose speech therapist and I doubt if they are highly paid.

Xenia leading your children in one direction is what most of us do. You are clearly motivated by money, others are motivated by completely different things. A lot of people are motivated by ability to 'settle down' - and this often means wanting a less demanding life in terms of, not the hours you work, but the 'headspace' that work occupies. It's the difference between (I'll call it) functional labour and the pressure of making life or death decisions on a daily basis. Remember that your grandfather may have had a very happy and fulfilling life as a miner. Not the most fun job in the world to many, but perhaps he got something out of that that isn't measurable in the same way that you feel life should be measured.

Unfortunately in this country, skilled/practical work is hugely undervalued whereas in Germany for instance, the earnings of a teacher aren't hugely different to the earnings of a plumber - but fundamentally, the earnings are the same. What drives our choices about where we guide our children, is desperate fear that they won't be in a profession because in this country there is no alternative employment that is valued, financially or in status. And that's how we end up with thousands of graduates with jobs in call centres.

Another thing is that often, pushing a child might mean they travel abroad and then might settle abroad, that is also something that might put some people off pushing their children too far outside their comfort zone.

read (fundamentally the status is the same)

Xenia does raise some interesting questions and of course it is a real concern that children from less ealthy families are less likely

But it's the ghastly generalising (not just from Xenia) that gets me: the assumption that all state educating parents have low aspirations for their children and are expecting to see their children in low-paid dead-end jobs. Dd's friends are already talking about Oxbridge and Russell Group and have planned their options accordingly; they can't be the only ones in the country.

The other great assumption is that all children from the same family have the same abilities and the same needs.

My parents had 4 children on whom they expended their educational zeal in pretty well equal proportions. Out of these the two middle ones were of a definitely academic bent, the youngest was highly practical/business minded and the eldest struggled in equal measure with the academic and practical side of life.

It took my parents years to see that they were making their eldest unhappy by assuming that he would be able to fulfill the kind of expectations they had for him; in fact, I don't think his confidence has ever recovered. He worked and he tried and he had all the opportunities and he just couldn't do it. Eventually, he did manage to find a path that made him happy and fulfilled (and eventually quite comfortable financially) by ignoring their insistence on higher education and getting himself a job he could actually do.

I am glad he wasn't pushed to become a brain surgeon because my hunch is he would have killed a few patients in the process. Instead of which he is a perfectly competent first mate who can navigate large boats into narrow harbours without mishaps.

As a university teacher, I see far too many students who are there because their parents expect it, though they themselves appear to have neither ability nor interest. It is quite depressing to see them struggle for three years and desperately ask for advice on what is going wrong and finally emerge with a Third which you know isn't going to do them much good. But it's not classbound as far as I can see; it happens just as often to children from well off families.

I think what parents need is not aspirations or lack of aspirations but an openness of mind and a willingness to look at each child as an individual.

dropped half sentence there: "are less likely to go into higher education"

I am firmly of the opinion that you should deal with the DC that you have and not the one you want. I know too many adults who have been pushed into a life path that their parents wanted for them and had nothing to do with them. They have generally been very unhappy and then thrown it over in a mid life crisis and done what they wanted to do in the first place.

My DSs are all so different but I value them all equally.
DS1 is the acadmic one with a scientific mind. He is the one who went to a Russell group university (his first choice, but not one approved by Xenia because it is in the north but not Durham)

DS2 is very intelligent and practical but he isn't academic and however much money I threw at it he wasn't going to be academic-just very unhappy. He is the one who has picked a job with money as a priority and done the apprenticeship and I predict that he will do better than DS1 if you are using money to value success.

DS2 is the artistic one, he again isn't academic and wouldn't be even if I had the huge salary that Xenia thinks it is my duty to earn. He is doing very well on a art based course at a university that would be right off Xenia's radar.

If I had followed her advice, had a huge salary and tutored them from birth to get a good school and go to one of the very narrow selection of universities to get a job they didn't want I would have 2 very unhappy mixed up DSs and I don't think that even DS1 would be that happy.

My friend's DS who has followed Xenia's path to actuary from a maths degree at Cambridge(but from a comprehensive) only stuck it for a few years before he went off to teach maths, earns a lot, lot, less but is very happy in the job.

I am very proud of all 3 DCs and pleased that they have followed their own dreams and not one hatched up by me before they were born and then persuaded they wanted to follow.

I am not a consumeristic sort of person. I do like achieving. Like marriedinw I work very hard and I agree with those comments about work ethic and what is inherent in some is not in others.

I stand by my comment though that some wealthier people want daughters to marry well and men to earn a lot and I think that's very bad.

I hope all children get choices./ I think I've said before that as long as mine make informed choices they can be monks or hermits or whatever they choose. I just lay the ground work and provide them with some genes and guidance and advice if they want it and often they don't take it. Laughing as I type at how often the older children don't take my advice and that's fine - it's their choices.

I hope I've never said all state school parents have low aspirations. indeed I said above some posh rich want girls to marry well and don't want them bothering with well paid careers and ambition. You hear time and again about the son did XYZ and the daughters married ABC. 50% of Oxbridge pupils are from state schools although many of those are from the few areas which still have state grammars. So of course plenty of state school parents have high expectations.

The good thing about the internet is it puts us in contact with different types of people. I have never known any parent whose child left school to become an apprentic. Literarlly 100% of the pupils at Haberdashers, North London C etc where my girls went go to good universities. and you have to ask why is that so when my local colmpa bout 5 mintues walk away gets 34% A - C in GCSEs and I imagine some of them go into apprenticeships and travel and tourism GCSE seems to be one of their most popular subjects. If it's trul comp why don't they have Oxbridge candidates. Why isn';t 25% of teh class doing what schools like Haberdashers do - is it low parents expectations? is it income. Is is just that the clever chidlren go to religious schools round here or the parents move near better schools?

(I've never criticised northern Universities. I went to one. All I have said is many employers have a pecking order so make sure you know it).

Even when I was at Cambridge (early mid 1980s), about 40% of the students came from state schools and varied backgrounds. Clearly there is a correlation between intelligence and wealth and wealth and going to a private school. So, obviously, a greater proportion of intelligent people go to private schools. However, that does not mean that brilliant people do not go to state schools and that there are a fair few thickies at private school (believe me, I went to a very academic London private school and there were plenty of very average students there).

The point is that Xenia is confusing correlation with causation. Sending an average child to a great school will not make him brilliant and most really clever children will do fine just about anywhere (assuming they have reasonable support at home).

The only actuary I know lives in Mayfair in what I would consider a house far too small for her children (despite the fact her husband is a fund manager) and stresses endlessly about nannies. It is def not a life for everyone.

Firstly Xenia-you have to stop thinking 'London' -I expect that if I lived in London I wouldn't use the comprehensives. (I would move out and commute).

My DS was the first in my family to leave school at 16 and get an apprenticeship-they are like gold dust and we had no contacts-I am very proud that he got one through his own efforts. It is the way he wanted to go and he did brilliantly -he was nicknamed 'office boy' or 'golden boy' because he is expected to go far. He may to university in the future, if he wants to-it is in the back of his mind. People need to get out of the idea that university leads to success in life-there are other routes.

There are lots of routes to success. I have worked with plenty of entreneurs who left school at 16 including those with dylsexia who were clever but it wasn't dealt with properly. Also of course success in life is about feeling happy and being healthy and living a good life which is not related to income at all. However once you have the health and good life and like your job most people probably would prefer their children to have the easier life a reasonable income tends to bring and want to live in a society which is a meritocracy. Thus discussing what leads peopel to do XYZ is interesting particularly as we are all parents trying to do the best for our children on a daily basis, whatever best means.

I don't agree that if they're clever sink or swim they will be fine and if they aren't that bright forget about them. I think they are 50% their genes but also the other 50% is the rest of their environment and for this leafy suburb to yield in a state school 34% A- C at GCSE (i just tried to check their destinations of leavers but they go to different schools for sixth forms so I couldn't) seems rather bad.

I suppose most parents nkow that if you have a degree from a reasonable place then things tend to be a bit easier (although certainly not dead easy by any means) so we tend to want our children to read and wrhite, speak well , be able to work hard, get good results because it makes life easier.

I speak to a lot of people through work from companies around the UK and plenty of them have found in their 30s or 40s they have had to get degrees with the OU etc because without a degree even though they are excellent in their post they cannot get promotion - there is a barrier there without the degree however unfair that is so I still think for some a degree will be worth having.

Xenia,

Is it the school, though, or the parents? Of course school is a factor and a disastrous school can be a big factor, but a bright person with good parents and a middle-of-the-road school should do fine. I too live in a renowned "leafy suburb" but there are plenty of very rough estates within it.

Earning well is also always a plus, as it gives one many more options in life. On the other hand, it depends how you earn and how much happiness it brings. There are far too many investment bankers (what I used to do) on £300k+ per annum but working 80 hour weeks, full of stress, and never seeing their families. Work should be a means to an end unless you truly have a vocation, which, sadly, few of us do.

You are still talking about London though Xenia-the school that you are talking about may be in a leafy suburb but a lot of pupils will be 'creamed off' in the private schools and if it doesn't have a 6th form is at a disadvantataged.

I am talking about a leafy area outside London where very few are 'creamed off' and all schools have a 6th form.

My DH has commuted to London for over 20yrs-no way would I live there-3 days is quite exciting and then I want to get out!

I work to live-I don't live to work and I am certainly not going to find a career to keep my DCs on a treadmill. If they want to be a landscape gardener or keep sheep in Wales they are free to do so.

We moved from London as the schools weren't good enough, amongst other reasons. We weren't even convinced about some of the independent ones - too pressured and competitive, and not enough holistic education in place - lots of orchestras/choirs/bands/sports for showing off to parents and putting in the prospectus, but the kids looked tired, and apparently spent their lives in the back of cars or on the tube, being ferried around from one place to another, bagging accomplishments for their UCAS forms like walkers bag peaks in the Lake District. Schools up here are more relaxed but get similar or better results when you take the individual family backgrounds into account. Schools like Hills Road, Long Road, Hockerill and so on all get outstanding results by anyone's standards. I think we did the right thing moving up here.

We all do what we think is best. I am just interested in what makes people what they are.

I suspect earning quite a bit of money is one of the best ways to get your sheep though. I someone fairly wealthy who keeps sheep - earn the money , then buy the sheep farm perhaps if that's what you like.

I suspect so too Xenia but that shows that the high powered job was just a means to an end, necessary for the high salary but not as rewarding or interesting as keeping sheep.
Some people may think it worthwhile but I don't really want to ruin the best years of my life on some treadmill, in order to buy my farm.(not that farming appeals to me)

All this talk about 'brilliant' and 'bright' in relation to 'success' makes me vomit.

My friend's dd always gets top in maths and science. Her mum thinks she should go to a selective school. I feel under pressure to push my dd further, she feels left behind. But my dd climbs trees. Her dd has never climbed a tree in her life and is unlikely to ever do so. Her mum never encourages her or enables her to do this.

Who is the 'bright' child?

As I said in Germany it is quite normal to have families send one child to an academic school and another to a vocational school. Schools are set up like this. It doesn't always work out, and some children are mis-placed and then have to adapt later on, but the main thing is, both are accepted as equally valid choices, neither choice is better than the other.

Most DCs are average. I don't think that some people understand the word average. Even most MNetters will have average DCs.
I don't think that selective schools are for the slightly above average-they are for the real high flyers.
There are DCs who will remain average whatever the parents and schools do. My nephew goes to a private, selective school. He has been since he was 3yrs. DCs were sifted out and told it was not for them at pre prep stage, more were weeded out at the prep school phase and even more were weeded out at the upper school phase (I haven't asked, but I expect it happens again at 6th form) You could ask why this could happen as the parents wanted the best, wanted to pay and the school had had them since 3 yrs-it certainly shouldn't happen if parents and schools can make a difference.
Not all DCs can be brain surgeons-however much their parents pay and desire it.

I wish we had the German system. We won't make the most of the talents of our young people until we stop getting them all to jump through the same hoops and have equal pride in other qualities.

There has been some talk of 'pathways' to be determined at age 14 but that will only be successful if those that are sent on the non-academic pathway are made to feel that their choice gives them as much opportunity as the other option.

The best schools are so talented at spotting bright children at 5 they don't need to weed out. That's been our experience anyway.

Gosh bright girls climb trees. The money enables those things. I was on my island last week near the equator. I was up trees. I adore my work too so it's not doing dreadful dull work to achieve the nice (sheep) bits but lovely work lovely pay and lovely fun. That's presumably what we'd all want for our children.

It tends to be the mothers who think girls should wear pink and wear dresses and in effect get ready for marriage who discourage study. The bright mothers who see girls are professionals encourage them up trees so I don't really agree with the implicatnio that the mothers of the less bright encourage daughters to climb trees and the others don't.

We know what average is. The average IQ is 100 and plenty are below that. 120 is the grammar school university entrance IQ level. Yes, plenty of children are average but are they born or made average. Are they rendered average by limiting expectations of parents who say yhes dear gosh would be lovely if you could be a nurse or care home worker rather than your mother is a Fellow of the Royal College of Physicians or chairs the board at BP and may be you';ll follow in her steps.

I don't know where you meet these people Xenia! I was left to make up my own mind for career and I left my DCs to make up their minds.
I can't imagine much worse than chairing the board at BP- and the former is no good if you hate anything medical (same with nurse and careworker)-so I am very thankful that if my mother had such ambitions she never mentioned them!
I don't think that you can render anyone average. Sadly you can stop their ambitions by not supporting.
Although schools can spot the bright DCs at 5 yrs they miss a lot-they miss the shy or retiring or the ones that won't cooperate. However I don't suppose they are suited to the school anyway.

I have not decided my chidlren's careers and my parents didn't decide mine. I did my own research as a teenager and none of my children had any idea when they started university what they would do.

We certainly need many many more women who would like the chair the board at BP though and similar careers rather than sticking to the typing pool or its modern equivalent of a job on the tills at Tesco.
I don't think it's at all hard to render children average. Indeed plenty who would do very well if their problems were addressed languish. if we took my eldest who is a bit dyslexic if she had been in a different school and home environment she might have had a lot of problems.

Well so did I but I didn't look at my parents and think-'they are high achievers-I should follow'. My father had a high powered job-he sat on boards. All I thought was -'not for me'.
I was a teacher-I never have had the least desire to be a Head teacher, or even deputy. If I was a doctor I would opt for GP in a nice market town and not wish to do anything else.
We may well need women to chair BP but there is no way I am doing it! It means that you are living to work. I want a job where I can take time off to look after my DCs, I wouldn't have wanted to miss those early years and give them to someone else.
Going up a career ladder doesn't have the least appeal-I just want an interesting job that I can work hard at but leave when I go home-(which is why I have stopped teaching).
If women want to do that you will find they are driven and get on and do it.

Xenia you are looking at life in a very simplistic and linear way - childrens future success cannot be measured by some kind of rating decided upon by the 'best private schools'.

Implying that a job in Tesco's is an indication of failure in this hierarchy is snobbish elitist and unrealistic. You are insulting thousands of people who work extremely hard.

This kind of attitude is the reason why the issue of access within our education system needs to be completely overhauled. It is fuelled by fear and perpetuated by the way we treat our workers. It doesn't provide us with a country full of motivated and satisfied people, it produces a country full of pushy rich people, sneering at those they trample underfoot.

You also assume Xenia that people look others and get the same message. You see yourself as a role model. If you were my mother I would think-'I'm not working like that-I am not going to have a nanny and miss all the best bits-I am going to have a career where I can get off for a few years or a career where I can change direction and certainly a career where I can go part time if I want to'.