to confiscate her bank card?

[WongaWoman]

Today I opened the October bank statement of my eldest DD (19) and was horrified to discover that she was overdrawn by £280, had been charged nearly £90 in authorised and unauthorised overdraft charges, had accrued over £40 so far this month in charges, and she had received a payday loan of £100 from a well known online payday loan company earlier in October.

She is only on apprentice pay of £2.60 per hour! I have now nearly killed myself to pay off her payday loan and overdraft. With back up from my DH I have confiscated her bank card until I get all my money back as I thought it was the cheapest option for her. She was in floods of tears tonight in embarrassment and at losing her independence.

I don't really know what else I could have done. AIBU?

Also remember we didn't get credit cards at that age years ago, it was strictly cash accounts or savings, if you were lucky, a bank account. Our children are facing a deregulated banking system that will do almost anything to get young blood to take up their greedy offers.

Agreed rhw (again). When I was that age ATMs didn't exist. It was the bank with your cheque book for cash (and only between 9.30 and 3.30 and NEVER on a Saturday). We had much less opportunity to run up debt.

The world has changed out of all recognition realhousewife. They have to have a bank account, they have to handle large amounts of money if they are a student. They need lessons on it, they need to be able to budget. They need cards to buy online.

Wonga, you know your daughters and how to treat them. DD1 will know you haven't opened DD2 bank statements. Its clear she'll understand its about more than you simply being a controlling mother.

I always had the attitude that whilst I lived under my parents roof and I was still financially dependant on them, that actually they did have 'more right' to 'interfere' and question me. That was part of the deal. I didn't have to like it, but it was part of the package and I always knew it was cos they were worried rather than 'controlling'.

I think it has to be said, what would people do if you had had a baliff come to the door trying to collect debt and your daughter was away at the time? Would they still not go into her room and open letters? Or could they really wait until DD returned. Not convinced many could. And by the look of the way things were going it could have been a very real possibility with a pay day loan...

YANBU

I for one applaud your actions.

realhousewife
Also remember we didn't get credit cards at that age years ago, it was strictly cash accounts or savings, if you were lucky, a bank account. Our children are facing a deregulated banking system that will do almost anything to get young blood to take up their greedy offers.

Friend of mine racked up 18k in gambling debts when he was 18/19. Got involved with all sorts of loan sharks. Got threats of having legs broken. His mum found out by invading his privacy. Ended up remortgaging the house, and taking out a loan to bail him. I haven't heard from in a while, but last I know he was in mid twenties in a very responsible professional job and definitely learnt his lesson. Don't know a bloke who loves his mum more or would be more gutted about causing such heartache. He was still paying her back and was determined to do so.

Frightening stuff. Its just too easy for 18/19 year olds to get things like pay day loans. They should be banned.

Yes, there should be an age limit of 25 for loans I think.

I don't know how the age of 25 is any use when tuition fees alone are going to cost £9,000 a year, which is £27,000 before they are 21 yrs and that is nothing to do with living expenses. The 18yr old takes it out-not the parent.

So a payday loan is suddenly the same as a student loan?

You said loans. How would you specify loans? Either you can get loans as a 19yr old or you can't. What if they have money and want a mortgage at 19yrs. People seem to be assuming that they have a very childish 19yr old and mum is still in charge. They may have been left money, they may be maried with a DC.

exoticfruits the student loan thing annoys me. I don't believe kids taking out a student loan actually know what they are taking on. On the other hand it also annoys me cos the new system actually works out as being cheaper for a lot of people than the current one. But thats not being reported... I could rant and rave about the politics on that a lot. People have an incredibly limited understanding of complex finance, even when they are good for money. There was an excellent article about real costs of new student loans system. Think it may have been on MSE but I forget.

Loans should generally be means tested though imho. And when you are earning £2.60 an hour...

I hate the fact that they are the norm so that any 18yr old student starts adult life with a huge amount of money that is borrowed-and needs to.
I do think they know exactly what they are taking on, which is why many don't go and why there was such a clamour for places this year. For those with younger DCs, who haven't come across it, it is the student who takes it out-the parent just supports it by filling in their financial details. The money goes to the 18yr old, they have to manage it and their bank will not give you any details.
Therefore you are aiding them to borrow large amounts of money but have no control.Unless you resort to opening their post you will not know anything that they don't choose to tell you.
Therefore if they don't understand what they are taking on they shouldn't be doing it!

I would not recommend ageism to preclude loans. At 20 I was a graduate and very very sensible. I have never had an over draft in my life and only mortgage debt.

Women who pick good careers can ensure their children don't have student loans of course.

dont be silly xenia

They may actually be wanting their own DCs to do it under their own steam Xenia and not just hand it on a plate!

They will never learn about money if mummy just hands it over every time they need it!

I certainly know that point of view. Even some very rich parents don't give their chidlren a penny at university nor let them live at home in holidays so that they appreciate their degree more. I think if you have brought up children well and perhaps paid fot their education to age 18 it is reasonable to ensure they graduate debt free. In fact we had an agreement that I would pay them £100 a week at university (and their fees and rent paid) if they did not take on any kind of debt whatsoever and that worked quite well.

realhousewife Sat 12-Nov-11 22:49:17
"Yes, there should be an age limit of 25 for loans I think."

Good heavens! So how do young families with a good earning capacity get a mortgage then? Is it that outrageous to want to get married and start a family at the age of 24 these days?

Or to start up a business- what would happen to enterprise if everybody had to wait until they are middle aged?
(my db was running his own very successful firm long before age 25)

And how can you allow young graduates to start out on careers in banking if mummy and daddy are still supervising their personal finances?

fwiw I grew up in a country where student loans (though only for living expenses) were the norm even 30 years ago and we knew exactly what we were taking on- I paid my loan off with savings made from my postgraduate funding. Like Xenia, I was an adult at 20.

I personally think the OPs case would make more sense if we regarded it not as:

"this just shows that nobody is an adult at 19",

but more as

"oh dear, what do I do when I find myself in a situation where I have to admit that my daughter has not matured at the expected rate- do I recognise that and help her, and if so what is the most effective way to avoid future trouble?"

rather as if with any other delay: it doesn't necessarily mean you should assume everybody will be delayed in the same way- it just means you have to deal with the actual case you have in front of you

not sure how I would approach it, but I think I would like to come up with some kind of time plan for when dd gets more independent/moves from home/no longer gets bailed out

A good post cory. People will insist of keeping their DCs as infants, starting way back when they won't leave an 8yr old for 5 mins or let their 8yr old boy get changed by himself in the men's changing room at swimming and they carry on always assuming control so when they get an 18yr old earning money, wanting to travel the world or take out a student loan they still see them as extension of themselves and incapable.
It used to be the norm for people to marry at about 22 yrs and buy houses, start businesses etc. Now people assume they have an innocent abroad who must be still be sheltered and controlled by a 'proper' adult-it is quite obvious why their DC is an innocent abroad-they have never been given any independence!
We have got an investment for DS which will pay off his loan later but I am not telling him this now! Much better for him to be very careful with money.

I would add that I wouldn't take late developing maturity in any one individual as a sign that that individual family had failed to provide independence: sometimes that is the case, but sometimes it is just that some people seem to be naturally less quick to mature and it's not necessarily the parents' fault.

(my parents managed to turn out 3 children who were well clued up, including one successful businessman, and the one child who has always been very naive about money- I really don't think it's anything they did (and it wasn't the spoiled youngest either). The same sibling is also the only one out of the 4 to be naive about relationships, and about many other aspects of life)

It's more a question of "this being so, how do we deal with it"? Do we withdraw all support suddenly at age 18, do we withdraw support gradually (and if so, how) or do we keep propping up forever?

I would agree-we are still waiting for my brother to mature! However my mother propping him up was no help. It is more difficult with some, which is why you have to make them more responsible by sitting them down and suggesting ways to cope and saying that you will help them cope. Not a rap on the knuckles, mum will sort it, never do it again'-it might work with some, with others (like my brother) it is merely a safety net as in 'it doesn't matter mum will sort it'.

I have read up to about page 7. What is missing for me is the conversation you sat down and had with your daughter when she got a job that paid her £2.60 per hour. For a 35 hour week that works out at £91.00 pw. £394 pcm.

Further up the thread I think you said she also had to pay you £100pcm housekeeping from that and that she had a phone contract for £32 pcm. That leaves the girl with £262 a month. Let's just say she has fares of £3 per day and spends £2.50 a day on lunch and a drink which are reasonable expenses to incur to go to work - that comes to another £110pcm, leaving her with £142pcm.

I think you did absolutely the right thing to pay of the pay day loan by the way - I would do that. I don't think you should have opened her bank statement but I do think you should have confronted her and given her the opportunity to share her problems with you.

Once your dd has paid her day to day expenses she has just over £30 a week for spends and I assume clothes, hair and make-up; that is actually very very little - and that is in return for a full week's work.

She has been silly and immature in her approach to her problems. However, I don't think she necessarily had the support and guidance to keep herself out of trouble in the first place. She is doing an apprenticeship for some experience, she is earning an absolute pittance in return for that experience, if she is going every day and doing her best in a very difficult jobs market I think you should be proud of her and let her know that.

Please draw a line in the sand and move on OP. Please give her some advice and guidance about budgeting in future. Please don't hold this over her - it sounds as though she's doing her best and that she tried to be grown up by trying to sort it out herself even if she did it in the wrong way. Please give her some rope - she hasn't stolen, she hasn't been nasty to you, she hasn't been inconsiderate or even stormed out when you have opened her post and hauled her over the coals.

Our DS is 16 and still at school. He gets about £50 -£60pcm from us, his phone c£25pcm, his lunches and fares paid, his clothes and toiletries paid. At Xmas DH is going to open him a bank account and pay in £125pcm to start teaching him to budget. That will be his monthly spends, toiletries and clothes. We aren't expecting miracles but we will sit down with him beforehand to work out a budget and watch him learn the hard way - hopefully it won't cost us too much and the lesson will be learnt before he goes to university.

A very sensible post marriedinwhite.

The OP takes £100 a month off of her that is not being supported that is being ripped off.

My son has always budgeted without any help from me, I never gave my children pocket money, they only ever had the £30 a week when they went to college, they lived on that paying £20 fairs and lunches. When my son got his ASDA job out of college hours he saved every penny for ten months resulting in him having 3k. I was on benefits at the time but no way would I have taken a penny from him, out of his savings he is using it to subsidise Uni.

Children learn from their parents, you don't have to teach them if you bring them up properly they do not stray from the right path.