Teachers - you're 'avvin a laugh aintcha?

[mholdall]

Kids recently had a week off - half term. They were back this week then, guess what - teacher training day. Seriously, what I want to know is this: is there ANY other job in the country where you get:

• 13 paid weeks holiday a year
• Good pay
• Good pension (believe me, you do compared to people who do proper jobs in private sector - if you dont believe me, try it)
• And yet you still need these extra days to do some training. Training for what, exactly? Seriously, for what???? And how am I, as a parent, supposed to factor childcare in here.
• Oh, and you still do nothing but moan about pay, pensions etc
• Rant over

@Feenie

However, can I ask why the OP's post is allowed to stand? She/he's post is much more inflammatory and rude about a group of people than some of the posts that have been deleted.

I would also like to know the answer to that - perhaps MNHQ support the OP's view?

The deletions on this thread are ridiculously over-sensitive and out of proportion to the way threads are usually handled.

We've left the thread up, Feenie, because, personal attacks aside, we thought it had turned into a powerful discussion of the gap between the realities of teaching and the stereotyped assumptions made by some.

We are deleting personal attacks - and other posts that break our Guidelines - in exactly the same way we would on any other thread that's been reported to us.

Mumsnet kindly emailed my original post and I will re-post without the PA:

I've been teaching for 20 years, and I'm really tired of of people bitching about how easy it is. Frankly, if it is, then, please, join us.

The amount of abuse I have put with over the years, is phenomenal. Like NorfolkNChance mentioned, you really have to be so much more than a teacher. Often you are a social worker, a nurse, a punching bag, a crisis manager, and the list goes on.

I've been called so many names by students, have managed autistic kids, special needs kids, kids who can't speak English, misogynists, naughty boys, bitchy girls, bullies and children with mental illness. Whilst managing 31 other children at the same time. And dealing with ignorant parents sometimes, too.

How many professions have to deal with 32 clients at once (all day?) and educate them at the same time?

Teachers work bloody hard. My own children have clearly stated they would never become a teacher after seeing how hard their parents work. They know how much we earn, and they think the money doesn't match the workload.

My husband regularly stays up until midnight marking papers. I don't anymore because I'm now part-time. There is no way we could have both of us working full-time as teachers. It would destroy our family life.

The holidays are great, but I couldn't continue to be a teacher without the respite. It is exhausting - emotionally draining.

However, I have always felt privileged to be a teacher. Most days I love what I do, and really feel lucky to be a part of the student's lives, and have the privilege to teach them.

From my husband:

I reacted rather badly to the comments my wife is responding to, above. I'm a teacher too and have watched my wife getting shafted for years, not getting permanent teacher status because she selfishly broke her service by having her own children (left a temp. for over 10 years, despite achieving excellent results with her students). This delay to her permanent status meant she still hasn't had any long service leave and that has prevented us from joining non teachers taking holidays "off peak", saving money and avoiding holiday crowds.

(Incidentally - we teach in Australia, so the conditions re: permanent status and LSL may be different in the U.K)

Why should the whole thread be deleted? I have read threads on mumsnet that make this one appear like a subject for bed-time reading.

@roundtable

Yes, if everyone's posts are going to be deleted, defending teachers against an unpleasant OP, then the whole thread should be deleted.

Why can a group of people on masse be attacked but it's not allowed the other way around in response to the orginal attack from the OP?

Because we don't allow personal attacks.

It's quite possible to demolish the premise put forward in an OP without attacking the OP personally.

You can say:

'compared to people who do proper jobs in the private sector'

Teachers in general have enough qualifications that they could walk into 'proper jobs' and immediately boost their salary by 10%+. They choose to work in a job where they face verbal and physical attacks from pupils and parents. Where they get abused by people who think they have it easy.

There would be a need for people who ran the after school (after 3.00 pm) activities. No reason why you could not drop some of your normal teaching load to focus on that or even get paid more to do more on top of yoru normal load.

I am not sure what you mean or even if that was an answer to my post about after school clubs, sorry it it isn't. "No reason why you could not drop some of your normal teaching load to focus on that or even get paid more to do more on top of yoru normal load." Do you mean that teachers should teach less? I really do not understand what you mean. (I am not a teacher myself BTW)

Also, if all the after school clubs have to be outsourced, it will make them expensive either for the schol or the parents and possibly for both. It would probably lead to them being cancelled anyway as unafordable.

Right then, I shall make sure I only critique groups as a whole and refer to posters rudeness to groups of people as a whole with a generic 'people' or 'persons'.

MildlyNarkyPuffin I have much to learn from you I think!

My deleted post reposted:

Oh so glad I missed this last night. OP be VERY glad about that because I'd be getting an email from the Towers about a banning for the sheer volume of profane language that would spew forth from my keyboard.

You want to think we have it easy? Well fuck you, you come in every fucking day and deal with the most amazing but the most challenging people on the planet (teenagers). You make everything new and exciting to them because they must be entertained at all times because for so many they don't get human interaction at home apart from shouts and a beating, the rest are dumped in front of their X Box all evening threatening strangers over the Internet as they play 18 rated games.

You deal with all that day in day out whilst having a heap of shit piled on you from the Govt on a far too regular basis to actually implement something and let it run.

You deal with the horrors these kids face (not your naice children OP who no doubt have a Waitrose ready meal waiting for them at home and their Noden jammies pressed ready for bed) and try to not cry as they break down in front of you and admit to what has been happening.

You deal with threats from parents because you gave little Johnny a poor report because their son is the Secong Coming and "what do you know you're just a teacher"

You deal with that all day every day of term time with a smile in your face and THEN you get a call to say that one of your pupils has FUCKING DIED AT THE AGE OF TWELVE and have to deal with a school in grief, children heart broken, questions being asked and you have the fucking nerve to sit behind your screen and berate US?!

Helen - if a personal attack is made, but the person it is aimed at doesn't report it, why can't it be left? Fair enough, delete it if they ask it to be deleted, but I don't really think it's for other people to get it deleted?!

NorfolkNChance - don't normally do this kind of stuff, but bloody hell, what a horrible week (((((((((hugs)))))))))))

Let's ignore the fact that dd's reception teacher has taught the entire class to read and write, inspires them, comforts them, genuinely cares for them, has covered myriad topics with passion, bakes with them, never stops smiling, is there at 7.30am each day and still there at gone 5pm most days, always has time to talk to you, knows each child inside out, is highly, highly qualified etc...

The bastard plays with the children. On a daily basis. I've seen her with the playdough, enjoying her bastard self. She's paid to PLAY. I've told the headteacher. He KNEW about it too. Bunch of bloody bastards.

The Mildly Narky Puffin Technique?

Love it!

Thanks Feenie, a MN shoulder squeeze just doesn't cut it this week.

NorfolkNChance

I've read all 17 pages of this thread with interest. I'm a secondary school English teacher. I'm in my third year of teaching. Prior to this, I worked in lots of different jobs. The longest was for a mortgage company. There, I put in long hours, often working on weekends. I had line managers who didn't do a very good job, and I often found interactions with them challenging. I had customers who were demanding and wanted everything done according to their timetable. If I was able to meet my customer's demands, I was often given gifts or cards to say thank you. My branch manager often bought lunch for everyone in the office and held an employee of the month competition to recognise hard work and boost morale. It was a difficult job, but I was paid well and I could always count on overtime pay and other perks to compensate me for my efforts.
I chose to teach because I have a BA and an MA in English. It was important to me that I be able to use my skills. Now I still work long hours but there is no overtime pay. I like to think of the holidays as my compensation. I still work with challenging line managers, and I don't mean the good kind of challenging. My customers...well, there are few customers quite as demanding as a teenager. There are also few who are quite as amusing! I don't receive gifts or cards so much anymore. That fades out a bit by the time kids get to secondary school. There are no measures in place to boost morale. Each week there seems to be a new measure introduced to help management check up on us, to make sure we are including starters or plenaries or marking in the correct way. In my previous job, if I was struggling with a difficult customer I could turn to my manager for help. Now there are no difficult customers, just those who are apparent evidence of my short fallings.
I love the kids I teach. They're funny and creative and I love seeing them succeed and knowing that I helped them. They can also be incredibly rude. Many come from families where teachers are enemies. They are taught by their parents that they don't need to respect us, so lessons can become a battledield. I do my best to diffuse those situations. For six hours everyday I am a performer, demanding attention, telling them no, pushing them to meet my expectations and doing my best to keep it all interesting and engaging. That bit is exhausting! And then they leave and the second half of my job starts.
On balance, I prefer teaching over my previous job. There are fewer material perks and I miss being able to go home and just switch off, but the emotional rewards are greater.
I wish I understood when and why teachers became the enemy. This country is full of bankers who continue to receive extortionate bonuses and MPs who are in no hurry to sacrifice any of their pension or salary. As in any job, it's disheartening to make your best effort day after day to be constantly told that you're doing it wrong or you aren't doing enough.

@ChippingInAutumnLover

Helen - if a personal attack is made, but the person it is aimed at doesn't report it, why can't it be left? Fair enough, delete it if they ask it to be deleted, but I don't really think it's for other people to get it deleted?!

Because those ain't the rules, Chipping.

We don't do deletion by request only!

Once we're alerted to a thread, we do try to look at all the posts. It would be wrong to delete one personal attack but leave others.

@Feenie

NB: not saying it'll always pass the deletion test, though...

NorfolkNChance

Why do teachers so seldom talk about the great days at school? It's 9/10 Our school days are so awful, the children are so ill behaved, the parents are all deluded about their childrens potential and or/aggressive. The pay is shite etc etc You do not make it sound appealing. The picture you present is that of a very uninspiring environment, that is NOT improving despite all the worthy input by great teachers over the years.

So why should anyone else have a positive view of what teachers do? You rarely present one yourselves.

I don't hear such a bleak picture presented by nurses, doctors or anyone else, they have an occassional moan and you commiserate with them, but I have to say with the teaching profession it does seem all rather bleak. Why is that?

Why do teachers so seldom talk about the great days at school?

Just to piss you off, shiney

NB: not saying it'll always pass the deletion test, though

It often doesn't

NorfolkNChance

In all seriousness now, I think the emotional aspect of teaching is one that can't really be measured unless you are in a similar, caring profession like nursing etc. It truly can be a rollercoaster ride. I love my job, I don't moan about it, apart from ridiculous government initiatives that come in constantly that have little to do with teaching likewise, I don't moan about other peoples jobs either.

Perhaps, unlike like some people, I have enough satisfaction from my life and am too busy to worry about belittling or complaining about what others do as unlike persons I understand that there are aspects of people's jobs that I don't know about, as I don't do it as a job.

How was that? Have I used the technique correctly?

NB: not saying it'll always pass the deletion test, though

Sounds like a challenge to me