Teachers - you're 'avvin a laugh aintcha?

[mholdall]

Kids recently had a week off - half term. They were back this week then, guess what - teacher training day. Seriously, what I want to know is this: is there ANY other job in the country where you get:

• 13 paid weeks holiday a year
• Good pay
• Good pension (believe me, you do compared to people who do proper jobs in private sector - if you dont believe me, try it)
• And yet you still need these extra days to do some training. Training for what, exactly? Seriously, for what???? And how am I, as a parent, supposed to factor childcare in here.
• Oh, and you still do nothing but moan about pay, pensions etc
• Rant over

Their pig headed unions, belgianbun. Re-read the post. Surely you can grasp that one. Or maybe not...

My first

Morebeta - I don't disagree with you, as it happens.

I would be happy for my hours to be officially 7.30-5 (9? No way!) I would still take work home with me, but at least people would believe that I don't swan home at 3.30.

The problem is with what happens to the children then. I already run 3 after school clubs, so finish at 4.30 on those days - then stay at school until 6 to get the planning and marking done for the next day. Who is going to take care of the other children until 5?

The TAs at my school (and I will admit that this may not be the norm) are great and dedicated people, but they largely do the job because they want to give something back. Most of them don't need the money. A TA's salary is not enough to live on or support a family on, so most of our TAs do the job for the love of it because they have other income (partner support...etc). It is a bit of a joke at my school that the TAs are the ones with the Audis and BMWs in the car park!

As a result, they don't want to give up any more of their own time. They are not paid enough to make it worthwhile and they give quite enough of themselves during school hours. I am sure there are people who would take the job, but we already have an after school club run on our school premises by child care workers. I don't see how what you are suggesting would be any different. On top of which, the parents who don't have children in after school club, and who do have time to collect their children from school, would probably rather have the children themselves, take them to the park, do their homework with them and play games rather than be forced to leave them in school for someone else to do those things with them.

In short - I don't think what you are suggesting is a change as such.

You will also see that I would like the summer holidays shortened. They are too long. I don't think you should assume that teachers will fight to keep it - most I know would not at all!

mholdall

their means belonging to someone e.g their job, their jacket

they're on the other hand is actually 2 words - they and are - meaning something entirely different

Guess you should have know that being all educated and too clever to be a teacher and that

Morebeta - I would love if it teaching were 9-5 and that were it and we could choose our holidays. I know many other teachers would too.

duckdodgers - re-read my original post. I put 'their pig headed unions,' - jeez, I cant believe I am being caught up in such a pedantic discussion.

These threads tend to prompt two extreme responses.

1. teachers on martyr mode who do the hardest job in the world for little pay or respect.

2. Parents who think teachers are thick, lazy, overpaid and out to make the lives of parents as difficult as possible.

Of course the truth is in between. Teachers are not a homogenous group, I know some lazy ones, awkward ones and some that are not that bright . They are not the majority though.

I am not paid for the holidays and therefore one of my missions in life is to do as little as possible in them . I can't do nothing in a holiday and because I enjoy my job I will often choose to do something. However I have never worked six of the thirteen weeks and I do not know a single teacher who does. A poster above said that during term time you are a teacher first and a person second , I think there is some truth in that. My family often have to come second or equal to my job in term time and therefore I do little in the holiday. During term time I do fifteen hour days Monday to Thursday . On a Friday I relax and only do 11. I also work weekends, although the amount will vary. One of the reasons I can do that is because I do fuck all in the holidays. Of course I could perhaps do a little more in the holidays and less in term time but it would only save me about two hours a day. I think. ( I did just make that figure up but it feels right.)

My holidays are a perk of the job and I don't know why I should feel ashamed of that and try and hide them away and pretend that I work through them. My partner gets financial bonuses, he is not ashamed of them. In fact it is accepted for other careers that there are perks of the job to attract and retain the right people.

I am not poorly paid - I earn about 40k a year as a middle manager. However compared to my peers from university I am a pauper - however I chose my career and therefore take the financial consequences .

I do not think that teaching is the hardest job in the world , in fact I think it is one of the most rewarding. I get paid to talk about a subject I love with fascinating people - it is hardly back breaking labour . However it can be emotionally draining , particularly in the role that I have.

I get very worried when I see people say " I wouldn't be a teacher for a million pounds". Why? Young people are great. Why are we do scared of them? Think of your own children, are they not great, interesting, warm and amusing people?

OP: Like I said before. Get on the PGCE, pass it and then judge. Why winge if you could be doing this wonderfully easy job yourself?

Lifeissweet I would be a TA if my wage was not needed . I love my job but I can see my shelf life as a teacher is approaching . Lots of our TAs have high earning husbands.

"I put 'their pig headed unions,"

Not in your next post you didnt. Awfully sorry for not reading every post.

Eer well exoticfruits, I have worked as a TA in an inner london (primary admittedly) school, and I happen to think all but the children from the most deprived backgrounds will have been brought up so that they can basically read and write etc by the time they reach school. Or are you suggesting that teachers do it all, all the time?

Most parents put a lot into their children's education too. They're not all the not bothered types. Although sadly there are a significant number of those. Attitudes like yours really don't serve to endear teachers to parents.

I would fight to keep my long summer holidays. It is the one time of the year I get to feel like a "proper" mother . That is not a dig at working mums, as I am one . It is just how I feel.

I always suspect that parents like the OP who belittle the teaching profession produce the children who disrespect the teachers. The little darlings who are impossible to discipline because at home the parents think education is the same as childcare.
I seriously thought about taking my PGDE (Scottish PGCE) but decided against it. I just did'nt think I was up to the responsibility though yes the holidays would have been nice.
No I do no not want schools to be open 9-5 or have shorter holidays. My DD works bloody hard at school and needs the time off to play. I am not a SAHP so I pay for childcare in the holidays and after school. I believe it is a price worth paying.

I'm with you, Twinkly. I agree with everything you said.

However, the sort of attack launched by the OP does provoke a response where teachers have to emphasise the harder parts of their jobs because to admit that it's a great job with lots going for it and long holidays to boot would be taken as an admission that it's an easy ride - and it just isn't!

I can't wait to retrain as a teacher, it will improve my quality of life no end.

My teacher friends sometimes work as "late" as 8pm on parents evenings and when they have extra work to do, they take it home and do it in their own time. When it gets stressful, they remind themselves that there's a holiday the following month, and that they were on holiday the previous month. Oh, those in the state sector are provided a pension by someone who will never go bust. The MIL and her generation were "forced" to retire in their 50s rather than scale back their work gradually in order to preserve their maximum level of final salary pension.

When I did my A levels (1995) it took two grade Es to become a teacher, so perhaps those who struggle just can't cut it. Most people get grief from their job, especially in people-facing roles where they are providing a service to others. Teachers are not "special" or "different" in that regard.

I work in the private sector and my salary is probably double or treble most teachers, BUT:

1. I get 25 paid days holiday per year 2)I work as and when my bosses/clients require, over and above my contracted hours which are full time 4 days a week. This week I have worked 9am-9pm and 9am to 10.15pm, following by continuing to work from home until 12.45am. I'm currently 20 weeks pregnant. I was in hospital all day Thursday and required to respond to emails and phone calls whilst there. This has been perceived as me "taking the easy way out" as several colleagues from my team spent most of the week in the office, 4hrs sleep per night Monday-Wednesday then no sleep at all until Friday afternoon when the deal closed. We get very small bonuses (C.£1500 per year and only if we hit targets for the number of chargeable hours we bill - NOT a bankers lifestyle!)
2. I have been told it's unacceptable to leave the office at 5.30pm to collect my daughter as it generates "the wrong perception". 4)I'm often expected to cancel weekend plans to work
3. I don't complain. It's a sh*t life but that's what I'm paid for.
4. It's so sh*t and so incompatible with family life, I'm choosing to get out, not complain about my lot.

Everything is relative and whilst teachers do face challenges (as most people in paid employment do) I genuinely think most would be shocked at what would be required of them in other types of paid employment.

I'm also slightly puzzled about the argument over paid/unpaid holiday and calculation of salary. Either way you come out with the same annual income so why does it matter which way it's calculated? I know several teachers who take the long summer holiday as an opportunity to earn extra money teaching at summer camps and the like. And they have enough time in the evenings to do some private tutoring for extra money too.

Schools could not function if we had to limit our working hours from 7:30 - 5pm.

Over the next fortnight I have to mark 200 exams and write 150 reports on top of everything else I usually have to do.

here have teachers claimed to be different or special?

I love my job teaching and have no intention in ever leaving. That said, I work in a fantastic school which probably makes a difference.

yawwwwwwn

of not in

If teachers worked 9-5, I take it we are going to shift the coperate working worlds to start at least 15 mins later. How are they going to drop children off and be at work at the same time? Which means they'll need to finish work at least 15 mins later too.

Also if teachers prep, marking, meetings, paperwork, finding/planning of resources isn't completed by 5, does that mean they can swan off home and teach a half arsed day as it's not completed?

Parents evening, concerts and the like, get rid of those too as teachers only work 9 to 5.

Schools have a staff meeting for at least and hour every week too, so that leaves half an hour that evening to get everything done too, but teachers can leave it when it gets to 5? Excellent.

Teachers could do all their planning in advance and if children don't fit into it tough! Teachers only work until 5, they shall chant.

'You want to go on a residential trip or day trip? All together now...'Tough, teachers only work until 5.'

Teachers that come in from 7.30 to prepare...ready everyone, sing it with me...Tough, teachers work from 9 until 5.

I'm sure there are more examples.

Great proposal, splendid.

'I am not poorly paid - I earn about 40k a year as a middle manager. However compared to my peers from university I am a pauper - however I chose my career and therefore take the financial consequences'.

Many mid level university lecturers get paid around £45k a year - they have a similar pay scale to teachers. My wife is a university lecturer (part time) and I used to be one. Given that most university lecturers have a PhD, some management responsibility and are generally far more highly qualified than a teacher then it is fair to say that a teacher on £40k is not badly paid in comparison for a somewhat similar job.

As a former university lecturer, I know that peparing lectures in holiday times and marking exam papers in term time is an integral part of that job. Being able to take holidays is similarly restricted to 'out of term time'.

My suggestion I suppose is teachers should work more like university lecturers.

Who is looking after the children till 5 under your proposal MoreBeta? You would actually be worse off as a working parent.

Teachers are not paid forthe holidays. On supply I got more per hour because I didn't get holiday pay. If I got holiday pay it would be adjusted so that I got less. As a supply teacher you have to put up with no earnings in August and much reduced in December (when you could really do with it).
You couldn't limit hours-you can't stand in front of a class unprepared and parents would soon moan if there were no reports, no parent's evenings, work wasn't marked, there was no school play, no clubs, no school trips etc etc etc.
I think every hour in the classroom needs one hour outside for work. The only way to do it would be to have 2 teachers for every class and they could split the work and fit it in between 9 and 5.