to think that, in general, people in the UK have an appalling attitude towards academically bright children?

[AKMD]

I realise that that's a sweeping generalisation but it irks me. I am academically bright and had a dreadful time at school, not really from the other children, but from the teachers and friends' parents, who were quite sneery and mocked me infront of the whole class/friends if I ever did get anything wrong. It always felt that they were waiting for me to trip up and that they resented me just because I was good all-rounder (terrible at art though!). That was only 7 years ago. Since then, I've seen it happen time and again when people openly jeer at others who are clever, especially girls and women, and it's seen as completely acceptable. Just a few weeks ago on here, I was really shocked when a mother posted in Children's Books about her 18mo DD liking books and asked for age-appropriate suggestions, to be met with sarcasm about introducing her to Joyce and applying to Mensa. I've seen one regular MNer who clearly has bright children be sneered at when she said that the gap between her DDs' intellectual and emotional maturity caused them social problems: "Oh, poor you, it must be sooo hard to have clever children ."

AIBU to think that this attitude is disgusting and that the obstacles placed in the way of bright children are one of the reasons why we as a country are increasingly going to struggle to compete in a global market?

AKMD, I have never experienced teachers or parents who looked for an academically bright child to 'trip up', really? If so, things have degenerated since I was at school, I remember being paraded into the last year of juniors at the age of seven & being forced to give a demonstration of square roots, prime numbers & any random times table the class wanted to shout at me. I was horrified, but persuaded with the bribe of a chocolate ladybird. It was never mentioned afterwards, by teachers, pupils or parents.

I was allowed to carry on & enjoy my maths.

I was also allowed to get on & read whatever I wanted.

& play my violin.

& yes - there are some children who are horribly precocious & need a little 'peer slap'.

But a teacher & parent 'slap' - really?

I think the number of people coming on here and saying things like a child needs a 'peer slap' or 'taking down a peg or two' explains where bullies get their attitudes from - the home environment.

That's really sad that some people have that attitude, SixthSense. You're doing nothing wrong at all. Not everyone is like that and I hope you've met some kinder people along the way too! :)

"if I answer honestly I get somehow looked down upon."

& Milly R, yes, the most academic (ie - clever) children I knew are either academics, have chosen not to go into professions & do fairly mundane jobs or have taken themselves out of the job market completely.

So early academic markers are no markers of social success.

Except for my brother, spiderslegs, and his friendship group. Most mates from uni days at Oxford, none poor, all except one chosen to go into high paying professions....

@SmellslikeDEMONcatspeeWed

Thats amazing, I am exactly the same. I read obsessively and speedily throughout my childhood, had read the entire childrens/teenage section by 8 yrs old and most of the adult as a teenager -Lace by Shirley Conrad was an education--

I can't tell my right from left, I have to think which hand I write (right) with, I have never made a word longer than four letters on countdown and have to go though the alphabet from the start to order letters. I am not to bad at spelling though, but do I have to spell check more than a few words. I also can't pronounce many words that I know if I have never heard someone speak them.

DD 10 is on the top table for everything but she isn't G + T, I think the cohort are very average from what I have read on MN she is achieving average.

DS 7 SN, I believe he is G + T, but in school he is very different and struggles to puts his thoughts onto paper, stresses over maths in case he gets one wrong. He reads exceptionally well at home, all non-fiction but hates the school books and I struggle to get him to read.

He doesn't really speak in school unless he is asked a direct question so I don't think his potential is obvious. He has been bullied in the past. He doesn't have a single friend and most of the time he doesn't want any.

Cathy - you misunderstand, I went to Imperial, my friends went to Oxbridge, most became academics, those who didn't didn't fare particularly well.

DH 2:1 University of Wales, pissed off & enjoyed his life - I got a 1st - I have lived my entire life as I will

Towndon I realised my post about never seeing it so not sure it happens in general (as OP says she is generalizing) looks a little out of context and as though I'm denying the problem. I should have added that I've never seen it in the 14 years I've worked in Education or the 7 years I've been a parent.

I have worked with some gifted children - and know a gifted child. The gifted child's mother actually begs others not to put her DD on a pedastal because one day she'll realise she's not top of everything and it will be hard for her.

That has now happened and her DD won't take part in any form of competition because she may not win. Everyone is supportive though.

OH god, I'm not saying it doesn't happen - clearly it does from threads here - just I've never seen it and I thinks it's down to some people not down to Britain as a whole.

and yes, fwiw, I do join in the piss take over parents wanting to send their 2yo to MENSA. I don't deny there are some incredibly gifted children but I do disagree with the way some people push them even more and often wonder if schools/ parents gave these children some social support instead of 'hot-housing' them they would be far more 'gifted'.

I think the thing with parents 'hothousing' children is interesting. Sure, some people are pricks, and they do silly things with their children, and they drawl on about it to others (social skills lacking). I think most people, though, are in interaction with their children. It's not parental will being forced onto a child, it's a complex relationship where the child stimulates the adult into providing interesting things for them to think about/see/do, and the adults are the sort of people who enjoy it, so there's more "knowledge" going round iyswim.

It's a sort of family culture. Personally, I like it, I don't see it as wrong, and I assume most people are broadly the same (rightly or wrongly!) in their own ways. I would wither and die if I lived with people who didn't want to know new things and talk about stuff. How that translates to the outside world is a bit more problematic, judging by this thread! I wonder what the solution is.

^Hard work was being expected to crawl up the stairs, not being able to fit your wheelchair into the loo, having to explain your attendance record to the Education Welfare Officer while the head kept muttering "We have never seen any evidence of these problems", finding that the school had inexplicably "forgotten" to arrange for transport that could fit her chair in on the school trip. Those are hurdles. Not getting your name in a newsletter simply isn't something she would recognise as a hurdle- that's how life is for most children.^

Why this continual comparison with G&T and SN? They aren't comparable, sorry

It is difficult for children who excel academically to have their success ignored or shrugged off as showing off. If the school football team won the county tournament and were told to 'not go on about it, boys' then how would they feel? In my experience, bright children get that knockback again and again and again. Is it any wonder when some of them become arrogant little twits? No one else is going to celebrate their achievements except them (and hopefully their parents, unless you are particularly unlucky and get a set that call you a swot or gay for being intellectual) and except for the continual put-downs, how else are they going to get the attention that every child craves? Does anyone take them aside and tell them that pulling apart a teacher's lesson is cruel? No. In my opinion, and my experience, we fail bright children in every possible way by both minimising their academic success and hobbling their self confidence and social skills. I'm very glad that mine is not a universal experience but there have been enough examples on this thread and in the media to make me think that it's common.

I think it is very difficult to make any kind of judgement on what parents should or shouldn't do when I am not in the position of having a gifted child. I doubt the people who do have gifted children are going to come on this thread in great numbers given the tone of it and actually tell how they deal with it.

But is it not the case the children who are gifted often have certain personality traits? It isn't just a case of treating them as a normal child who happens to be really clever - they will also have other issues such as being perfectionists so that they really take onboard any criticism or bullying rather than just responding with emotional distress.

I think it would be quite cruel to hold a child back intellectually at the level of the rest of their peers simply because they had social issues. I think that would only exacerbate social and psychological issues.

The comparison was because somebody did suggest that children with SN and children who are G&T struggle in similar ways.

Why is it more difficult for a g&t child not to be praised above their peers than for a child who is not g&t? Serious question here.

My ds who is just below average doesn't get any more recognition than my dd who is g&t (in fact, rather less), so how come nobody would excuse him if he disrupted a lesson just to get the attention every child craves? The only difference is that if he did the other children would laugh cruelly and he knows that. But that does make him advantaged in any way above dd?

The general attitude on MN is that a bright child who disrupts a lesson because he/she is not given more praise than her peers is somehow excused, but there are no such excuses for an average child who disrupts a lesson in search of praise.

Personally, I don't want either of my children to behave in an inconsiderate way.

MillyR you're right there. My brother got an effortless first in Classics from Oxford 20 years ago. Since then he's work in a variety of low level jobs within 5 miles of home (with parents). Currently works in a warehouse. I'd bet my pot noodle mountain that he is autistic.

I am autistic (diagnosed a couple of years ago). I've dropped out of higher education 4 times in the past and have failed at every job I've ever done. Now I'm getting proper help I'm back at uni doing a law degree.

I haven't found that. I think that it is the parents who are so competitive and will even look in the book bag of a visiting DC or worry about which table they are sitting on in reception class!
They come on saying 'my 2 yr old can do x,y and z' how on earth will a school cope with them'!!! And I think, this is just a bright DC with a lot of adult interaction, they are one of many and they school will cope just fine.

There are other parents who can't take the fact that their DC isn't given a main part in the school play. They don't go to the play and think 'wasn't Miranda wonderful in the part'-they go to see their DC and think 'why was Miranda chosen again and not my DC'. They have no interest in the overall production, the fact that Miranda is reliable, can learn her lines, has a clear speaking voice and a good sense of comic timing while their DC might take fright on the night, will be unable to remember the lines, will not speak up and doesn't play to the audience. They are the ones who 'put Miranda down', as teacher's favourite or her mother must be on the PTA-they never say 'Miranda is very talented'!

It isn't just academic-people moan because their DC doesn't get picked for school teams and they choose the best. (they are not going to win if they don't choose the best).

Most DCs are average-even MNetters DCs! Those who are above average will get on better when people are willing to be pleased for them and not try and hot house their own DC and be jealous.

I also think it is quite astonishing that on a thread which was originally about the bullying of clever children, people keep repeatedly saying that the clever children need to work on their social skills. Surely it is the bullies who need to work on their social skills?

OP, if you google it, you will see that your opinions are reflected in research. Gifted children are more likely to be bullied.

MillyR, I think it is the fact that some gifted children (and adults) have these personality traits, but not all.

Also, I have known non-gifted children (and adults) to display the very same personality traits, but in their case their giftedness/lack of giftedness is not brought up in the discussion, nobody suggests that their struggle with social skills is because of their averageness.

Exoticfruits: you know some crappy people then!

The worst I heard was someone I know whose 7 yr old daughter went on a playdate, and the girl's mother took the two girls off to do some independent IQ test totally without my friend's knowledge. That's NOT normal round our way thank goodness and neither is the competitive stuff.

I think the issue is people want children to be bright, but they're expected to fit in even more. And the conflict between what schools say they are for versus what really gets valued.
When I was in primary school it was clear that the children who were good at sports and music and ballet were the bees' knees, with their certificates and performances being lauded in Assembly and teachers coming up and praising them for hard work. The talk was about learning, but when I was top in end-of-term exams - not a word of praise from anyone, even three terms running. It was made very clear I ought to stay very quiet about it and be a bit embarrassed.

From the point of view of being disabled, while I had most PE teachers refer to me as 'that bloody spaz' and music teachers as 'stupid as well as deaf' and got chucked out of ballet in short order, it was made clear to me by my parents and most other teachers that that wasn't my fault. Whereas when I got told off by repeated teachers for using 'too big' words and that I'd have more friends if I didn't say things they didn't understand, or for finishing work 'too fast' and thereby being a pain, I got no sympathy at all.
My social skills aren't the best but not that bad, and I don't think it's unreasonable that if a primary school child is told 'do Exercise A and then bring it to show me', they do it and show the teacher when they finish, rather than calculating some time period that won't be deemed too cocky. In fact one time a couple other children and I realised this issue and all waited for each other and then some others to finish - and got told off for wasting time! Can't win.

But on the national level, you just need to look at the huge numbers of state school kids told not to apply to top universities like Oxbridge as they won't fit in, rather than to give it a go and see if they can reach that standard (a huge part of the reason Oxbridge is private-school dominated is simply the proportion of applications). It's scandalous negativity.

I don't think the issue is praise so much as encouragement. I know I cried sometimes at school because I had made such an effort on a piece of work, like art, that I wasn't good at, or spent ages researching a project and made a really good job of it, only for it to get a tick and a 'here's your work back' from the teacher, while other children who were more in the middle got help and encouragement as well as stars and stickers and housepoints. I'd worked just as hard as them but got nothing like the same amount of encouragement or recognition. Just a 'good job' would have been welcome. When you're a child, that hurts, and you start wondering why nothing you do is ever good enough.

Posters are saying that they or their children got told off for finishing work quickly or made to sit there and do nothing while the rest of the class caught up and got praised for it - surely you can see how the bright child in that situation gets penalised compared to children who are average?

But the situations described in this thread - eg. children who annoy or upset the others by 'hogging' the right answers or being 'too' quick - can only apply to reasonably academicay able children. When a child is doing averagely well in class, he or she cannot display the particular behaviours described here, which some see as displaying low social skills.

A child who calls out all the time but gets half the answers wrong, is going to draww a ifferrent conclusion (and elicit a different response) from a child who is constantly getting them right.

Milly, sometimes it is not clear-cut who is the bully.

When ds and his friends stopped wanting to play with the gifted boy in their class, his mum thought he was being bullied. The teacher had to explain very gently to her that the other children found it difficult to work or play with him because he was constantly pointing out to them that "I can do this and you can't", "you are not very clever because you can't do this".

This had such a bad effect on my ds that he started school refusing and gave up trying at school at all because, as he said, "I am not clever". His confidence plummeted and has never picked up. Of course the other little boy craved recognition for his cleverness, but it came at a heavy cost to some of the other children.

Ds is the gentlest of souls and would never say anything rude back, but he did start trying to avoid someone who was always making him think about how unsuccessful he was- and to the mum it did of course look like cold-shouldering.

I realise afterwards that I may have had that effect on some of my friends. Which isn't really a happy thought. I have tried to teach dd how make both other people and herself feel good at the same time.

Cory, I am sure that having issues with social skills is something that applies to people of all ability levels, but I have rarely heard anybody suggest that children of any other ability should be held back from pursuing their intellectual potential because of their lack of social skills.

I am not saying that certainly personality traits apply only to gifted children, but simply that how to deal with gifted children should include responding to their individual personality traits.

I agree with you that some personality traits apply to both gifted children and other children, but that doesn't say anything about their frequency and if they are much more common amongst gifted children.

(Sorry, my last was to cory).

But MillyR the kids I know who have had problems, have them because they are arrogant about their intelligence. They do need to work on their social skills!