to find pistonheads view of mumsnet funny!

[Beaverfeaver]

So it seems that the guys over on pistonheads are laughing at mumsnetters:

Feel free to see what they are saying here:

www.pistonheads.co.uk/GASSING/topic.asp?h=0&f=210&t=1069058&mid=0&nmt=Mumsnet

The word "all" makes no difference. Men used as a collective noun means generally the collective of people of the male sex. It deson't not require the use of "all" to be clear. That is why I have ben careful to say that "some men" (ie not the whole male collective) rape while others do not.

All men are potential rapists. All women (and men for that matter!) are potential prostitutes. These are options available to them. Saying this does not involve any moral judgements.

The moral compass thing; that's one of the reasons that could explain why some men don't avail of themselves of the raping option: because they think it is a despicable thing to do to a woman. Equally, some men don't think rape is ever actually a woman fault, they recognise that the perpetrator ie the rapist is the one committing the crime. Some men think that rapists should be prosecuted and imprisoned in greater numbers than they are now.

Some men don't. Some men rape. Some men blame women for their own rape. Some men think that rapists should be granted special treatment and not be considered like criminals. So do some women.

SproooooooooGer

What is it with all these O's :)

Yes put like that I can see the point of thinking like that.

However. ( :o ). The logic also goes like this... Bare with me

My best friend had a child with a physically and verbally abusive woman. She hit him with full force in the head whilst he slept one night and then called the police to claim he'd abused her. As an example. saw a lot first hand. She drank herself to death literally. She was to use the parlence of the day ' mental ' .

My friend, not uncommonly, also has a number of ways he asseses potential partners. ' will they hurt me ' , ' is she mental ' ?

And for some reason the ' is she mental ? ' is fairly prevelant between men ime.

Not in anyway comparable to rape of course. And no doubt the is he mental comes up too.

I had several mid / minor sexual assults from gay men when I was young and angelic. But the idea that men or gay men are all potential rapists doesn't ever enter my thoughts. Maybe if I went out more I might think about it more. Dunno < shrug >

But the point is that if you're rightly going to come down on male areana for ' all women are mental ' type statements then it's best to avoid statements like 'all men are rapists' and I'm aware I left the potential out there.

I'm sorry, I'm not really that offended, somewhat argumentative yes, but I have to admit, a bug bear, having left a car forum ( not pistonheads ) for being sick of the sexist crap, tits and fannies and right wing bullshit, I do find MN is sexist, just in the oppersite direction and with more talk about norks and vagazzling

Not read whole thread, but I quite like pistonheads and have taken my sports car to a lot of their meet ups. They all seem very friendly and helpful in RL. A lot of their meet ups charge a small fee which goes to children's charities.

I am also a moderator on a similar website and I find myself editing posts for bad spelling and ectopic apostrophes

That is why I have ben careful to say that "some men" (ie not the whole male collective) rape while others do not

It would be more accurate of course if you said "a small minority", not "some" men rape, and "the vast majority", not "others" do not. But that would lead you to different conclusions about the problem and the potential solutions.

Your choice of words is thus carefully and deliberately misleading methinks.

Mr. Gin: I like a good argument too. This part of the reason why I find Mumsnet such an addictive forum. I am not offended in general by what I read. You seem eminently reasonable in your last post. But I do feel that you hace avoided answering my questions about why saying males have the ability to rape is different than saying capable of rape or saying that all people are potential murderers.
Additionally I think as a man -which I understand from your last post you are- I would respectfully suggest that the social conditioning and education about rape has been different than mine as a woman.
The thing is women ate constantly told that they should take active steps to avoid being raped. The onous is clearly on the woman to avoid meeting a rapist.This seems to presuppose that rape is a result of something a woman has done wrong.
As a result we ate encouraged to think of men as potential rapists who we shouldn't provoke with our actions. While research shows that there are no behaviours that provke rape because not all men are rapists. People are raped because they meet a rapist: someone who thinks he has some right or reason to penetrate them against their will.
Men are not encouraged to think that they are potential victims of rape nor that they should take steps to prevent themselves being raped.
As a result male attitudes to the threat of sexual assault is likely to be different.

The problem isn?t with ? potential ? or ?capable ? it?s with the word ? all ? .

The majority of men will not perpetrate rape in their lives. To say then that all men are potential rapists takes morality and the ability to understand boundaries out of the equation and judges men ignoring their / our morality and sense of decency.

? some men are potential rapists ? is a more accurate phrase.

I may be physically capable of committing rape or any other heinous crime, but I am more than the physical. I like most men have a conscience and a sense of decency. Having been in passionate situations where a woman has drawn the line and said ?no? and I?ve backed off, I believe I am not a potential rapist. Nor are many of the men I know.

It?s not that different to portraying women as purely physical beings. Regarded purely in terms of their bodies, without consideration for their brains and personality . It?s on par with ? all women are a potential shag ? .

To say all men are potential rapists just gives the impression to one half of society that the other half are potential criminals and should be regarded with suspicion. ( which I?m sure is great for hard core feminists ) . But I personally find it objectionable to be looked down on for a crime I haven?t and will not commit.

The phrase may work well as a reminder to women when out in a bar or where ever, but I don?t think it?s any more acceptable than to say ? all Moslems are potential terrorists ? or ? all women are potential whores ? . They are all offensive statements banded about by racists and sexists. They are highly inflammatory statements, which is I guess the reason people raise them.

As for the issue of public announcements and whether the onus is on women to beware or men to check their behaviour? both I?d guess.

I teach my 3 year old daughter to stop, look and listen by the roadside. I don?t rely on road safety campaigns telling drivers to curb their speed.

I do agree these are contentious issues. But casually describing all men as potential rapists isn?t the best way forward IMO. Some yes but not all.

i wouldn't have thought that teaching your daughter to be safe near roads is in any way analagous to preventing her from being raped

The point is you need a penis and a some sort of unpleasant criminal personality to commit rape.
I can tell by looking at someone if they have a penis or not (with few exceptions) but I can't tell anything about their personality/morality til they show me what they're like. Too bloody late by then.

Line up 999 good men and one rapist and tell me to pick him out - problem is I can't know which of them it is. They are each as likely as any other to be the bad'un. They've nothing else in common but the fact that they're men.
That's not a stereotype or offensive, just a fact, sadly for all women and all decent men.

So by that logic SinicalSal you also describe everyone as a potential mugger, murderer, child molester, etc etc because none of those perpetrators come with a written warning on their foreheads either.

What's that you say ? You don't describe all women as potential child killers ? Why not ? If you're happy to regard all men as potential rapists why are you not describing all insert social group here as insert henious crime here

i wouldn't have thought that teaching your daughter to be safe near roads is in any way analagous to preventing her from being raped

You're right. But then I wasn't.

well yes, Mrgin. Obviously. Because it's logical.

I mean I don't go around describing all women as potential child killers at work, say. But in a discussion about the murder of children it's a salient point, surely.

then what was your point about road safety then, if not an analogy to the discussion at hand

Or is this just another of your inappropriate , such as calling your work colleagues 'potential whores' apropos of nothing.

Is your point that it's just rude to say it, rather than false?

Can you please clarify? It seemed as though you mentioned it to illustrate that people at risk of certain behaviours can't rely on public information campaigns directed towards perpetrators, and need to take steps to protect themselves. On a thread which seems to now be talking about rape i assumed you were making a parallel

Apologies if you mentioned road safety and your dd as a fun fact to lighten the mood

Uncharacteristically responding to a thread i haven't read in its entirety - sorry.

I am anxious - Pistonheads is Mr. VP's stomping ground. I have concerns he will now find his way over here now and stumble over all of the bitching and moaning I do about him embarrassingly lovey-dovey things I say about him

I have a fun fact: i taught my dd how to whistle when she was 3. It isn't very tunefil, but she sure likes it. It took quite a bit of practise before she got the hang of it, but she is one determined girl.

There is a difference between going into a bar and regarding all the men there as potential rapists ( murderers , nut jobs, wife beaters ) as a safety measure and to describe all men as potential rapists.

arf vivi

Best you namechange eh?

right

in our own heads, we are ok thinking that realistically, there isn't any way to work out if you will be one of the 1 in 9 women who will be raped, or if a given man will rape you

But saying it out loud is just kind of mean and gauche?

so it is that you just think it's rude to say it, not that it's wrong to think it.

ok then.

But I have to respectfully persist when I feel it's necessary - in a discussion about rape for example.

SinicalSal

I'm not going to go over points or explain every sentence just because you've turned up half way through a discussion and haven't read the thread. However condescending you might be.

It'd be like having a conversation with someone who has a three minute memory.

chibli

So, again, do you go around regarding all strangers on the street as potential muggers ( for example ) . Or indeed the whole human race. I very much doubt it. Have you ever uttered the phrase ' all humans are potential muggers ' ?

Of course you haven't. So why prey tell is it ok to describe men as such in relation to rape ? Because it's political that's why. It's a way of devaluing men in much the same way as ' all women are potential whores ' devalues women.

Why do you need to ask me anything when you answer the question for me? Is this a normal conversational gambit where you are?

Is mrgin obtuse and a bit of a blowhard? Of course. Does he actually read anyone's posts, with anything resembling care and attention? I very much doubt it.

Ok chibli.

do you go around regarding all strangers as potential muggers ?

do you use the phrase ' all humans are potential muggers ' ?

and your answer is ?

this is just a pointless argument about semantics.

What she clearly meant was "any man you meet could possibly be one of the few men who are rapists"

not that all men are just looking for an excuse to rape a woman

MrGin you are making an argument out of nothing