to find pistonheads view of mumsnet funny!

[Beaverfeaver]

So it seems that the guys over on pistonheads are laughing at mumsnetters:

Feel free to see what they are saying here:

www.pistonheads.co.uk/GASSING/topic.asp?h=0&f=210&t=1069058&mid=0&nmt=Mumsnet

Right whatmeworry. Now I understand. You are using "feminists" as a term like "men" or "humans" or "women" as if there is some kind of DNA/ genetic component to being a feminist. In other words, you are only using the concept of feminists as some kind of sub-species, rather than women who believe that we should be treated as full human beings, in order to do the usual bog standard tiresome thing of slagging off feminists. That is why your analogy is shit and that is why my reaction to it is . OK?

It is absolutely fair to say you haven't engaged MrGin. You still have not answered that very simple question, do you get offended by the general observation that all human beings are potential murderers? Is it something that makes you feel slightly uneasy, squirmy, irritated, defensive? I'm not asking if you get offended if someone tells you personally that you're a potential murderer while you're innocently reading your book while waiting for a train, I'm not asking what your co-workers think if they're told they're potential murderers while sitting at their desks industriously earning their honest living, I'm asking if you get offended by the general observation, that all human beings are potential murderers. You have not answered that question with a simple, honest straightforward yes or no.

As for your entitled, privileged stuff about if women want to change attitudes to rape, we need to be nicer about it - can you hear yourself? Do women really have to be "nicer", more submissive, more approved of by men, more acceptable in how they hedge their language and arguments, before they are deemed worthy not to be raped at the rate of 1 in 9, with most of them not reporting it and of those who do, getting a conviction rate of 6% even though only about 4% of rape allegations are false? Are you really saying that until women are nicer about the arguments, they can continue on getting raped?

FFS I know you don't mean to sound so crass because I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt here, but man, you really need to examine your privilege if you seriously think like that.

Whatmeworry, you've missed the point re: all men are potential rapists entirely

Rubbish. Here's a quiz for you - spot the inoffensive statement:

(i) all black men are capable of knife crime
(ii) all muslims are capable of terrorism
(iii) all catholic priests are capable of child abuse
(iv) all feminists are capable of irrational man-hating
(v) all men are capable of rape.

If you want to persuade people to your cause, then (IMO of course) a good starting point is to not be deliberately offensive.

As for your entitled, privileged stuff about if women want to change attitudes to rape, we need to be nicer about it - can you hear yourself?

(And crass and a man to boot, I see) - just because I dare to disagree with you! Ah well, they say that when the Ad Hominems start up you've won the intellectual argument.

You need to be cleverer than this politically. You need to find ways and words that put the majority of men and women on your side, not put their backs up. You need to work with people who are trying to achieve the same ends as you are, not slag them off all the time because their approach differs (cf Welsh police anti-rape poster slag-a-thon last week as a prime example).

Pissing off your potential allies and has never worked in the past, so what makes you think it will work now?.

Ah yes, women, don't ever think that you have the right to be considered human beings however you speak, however you behave, however you dress, however you express yourself.

If you want men to treat you as full human beings, if you want them to not rape you, not hit you if you didn't do the ironing properly, not kill you at the rate of 2 a week, then talk nicely and don't alienate them.

Because it is not their responsibility to behave like decent human beings. It is your responsibility to persuade them to.

Never forget that.

(i) all black men are capable of knife crime
(ii) all muslims are capable of terrorism
(iii) all catholic priests are capable of child abuse
(iv) all feminists are capable of irrational man-hating
(v) all men are capable of rape.

(i) as are all black women. As area ll white men. As are all white women. As is everyone

(ii) as are all catholics. Or Jews. Or Hindus. Or atheists. Etc.
(iii) as are all rabbis. As are all Mullahs. As are all monks. As are all non-clerics.
(iv) as are all handmaidens.
(v) Er.

what kind of total fucko bastard needs people to approach them meekly, gently, asking 'if you don't mind, and if you're not too busy, would you please take a moment to think about why it might be a nice thing if rape were stopped, not that you yourself have anything to do with it, nu-uh you're ace you are'

seriously?

history will not be kind to people who could have made changes to stop atrocities but didn't, because they didn't much fancy the way in which they were asked

Thing is wmw knife crime, terrorism, child abuse and rape are clearly defined CRIMES by any objective standard. 'Irrational man-hatred' is a subjective term of abuse that tells you more about the speaker. It's a common tactic used against feminists when they say something that's a bit uncomfortable. Men don't like being uncomfortable. Totally get it, neither do I. But at worst 'irrationl man hating' is just rhetoric - and sticks and stones etc.

I really don't see WHY it's so offensive, to make general point in the context of a discussion. Even Mr gin himself concedes the point that it's a logical statement, but his contention seems to be it's rude to say it. This is the umpteenth time this point has been raised and he has not engaged with it, I would like to see his response, genuinely and without rancour.

Look - all men have a penis.
He could be a potential rapist.
He could be a potential strong yet gentle lover, who shows his partners shuddering mind bending good times.

It's up to men to use their powers for good, not evil.

You know what, if only all those Africans had asked white Europeans nicely to stop transporting them to America, whipping them, starving them, castrating them, raping them, selling them, taking their children from them, de-humanising them, then the white Europeans might have listened to them and stopped the trans-atlantic slave trade much sooner.

I mean, how could white Europeans be expected to treat black people like human beings, if they weren't being asked politely enough? How could they possibly be expected to take any responsibility whatsoever for their behaviour, without being asked really nicely, by their victims? Really politely? With a bow and a kowtow and a Please Massa to boot?

Listen to yourself. You sound like a total man-hater - men can't be expected to think rape is bad, unless we bat our eyelids, smile, hedge our language, make it quite clear that we don't mean you Nigel, oh no, we recognise that you might be offended by our polite request and really we think you're lovely and we don't want you to think otherwise, but d'you think you might see your way clear to believing that we are real human beings with real feelings and we have the right to not have our bodies penetrated against our will? I mean, I don't mean to offend you, of course I don't mean right, I just mean it would be nice if you could see your way clear to only penetrating us when we want you to, erm, I hope I don't sound pushy or anything, I'm not one of those horrible man-hating feminists who can't even be bothered to apply lipstick before she asks a request of you, oh, you don't what I'm making a fuss about? Oh, sorry, I really don't want to over-react, sorry, I know you're busy thinking about far more important things, of course I can wait 400 years, of course my daughters and granddaughters and great grand daughters and great great great great .... Ad fucking nauseum.

Women have been trying that for millenia and it hasn't worked, has it? When they started smashing windows in Oxford Street, chaining themselves to railings, they got the vote. When they demonstrated in the street, they got Equal Opportunities legislation. Every time they stopped demanding and relaxed back into saying: "men will treat us justly this time, they will see that our cause is just and they are fair and decent and they will give us what we are entitled to", there has been a backlash. Making nice doesn't change society. Stating clearly what's right and fighting for it, does.

Listen to yourself. You sound like a total man-hater

Twasn't me filling 200 odd posts with "all men are capable of rape", Whoops. Now I know you've lost the plot.

Sorry, but anyone who declares that all men are capable of rape, doesn't deserve to be seriously engaged with.

Are you going to engage with my post wmw which was addressed to you?

So do you believe it is an offensive statement to say:

"All human beings are capable of murder"

?

I bet i'm not going to get a straight answer to that question.

Probably just another man hater insult, from someone who thinks men aren't capable of taking responsibility for their own humanity, unless women persuade them nicely.

No SGM she isn't.

She's just going to come back and tell you you're a man-hater. [hgrin]

Sorry I mean SS

no prob flattering mistake!

And it's really telling, that the only thing that WMW appears to have taken from my posts is that I've been saying "All men are capable of rape" and nothing else.

Apparently, i've said nothing else at all.

Nada.

[hgrin]

So I just discussed this 'potential rapist' thing with my dh (who is [kind of] of the liberal persuasion). His initial reaction - 'well I hope you don't think the answer's YES, or I'd be really pissed off'.

But then we talked about it a bit more - discussed Aye's and Woooooop's posts etc, and the hospital/injured child/abuse analogy, and he understands it much more now. I think he initially thought I was saying he was a potential rapist, rather than 'any' man could be a potential rapist. Not sure if that makes sense at all - but MrGin, nobody is accusing you of being a 'rapist if you were given half a chance' type thing - but rather saying that we know some men most definitely are rapists, and we women have no way of telling which.

I must say, judging from my dh's reaction to the this, it is a pretty touchy subject. Dh has now read Schrodingers Rapist

Of course, there is no persuading the MRA's of this world though - they just want to be offended by us ghastly wimmin.

Again, anyone who declares that all men are capable of rape, doesn't deserve to be seriously engaged with.

So I don't plan to.

But I will make an observation - clearly the line of argument that "all men are potential rapists" has not won many hearts and minds to your cause to date. I can also predict it is highly unlikely to in future.

I suggested the lessons you need to reflect on farther upthread if you wish to persuade and influence.

Actually, on reflection myself, I'll even make a bonus observation! One of the definitions of irrationality is to continue to do the same thing and expect different results.....

HTH :)

WMW I beg to differ.

HTH

It's you who is urging women to do the same thing and expect different results. Be submissive, giggly and nice to men, don't irritate or anger them or make them feel uncomfortable, and they'll stop raping us and paying us less than them and beating us up when we piss them off.

Women have been trying your technique for millenia.

And what we have, is 1 in 4 of us raped or sexually assaulted, 1 in 4 of us subjected to DV, a 17% pay gap, continual excuses for why the pay gap is justified, continual excuses for why objectifying us and representing us as sex object is OK, etc., the lie that false allegations of rape are a bigger problem than rape, etc. etc.

Does that sound like simpering and making nice is working?

It doesn't work for me.

It's you who is urging women to do the same thing and expect different results. Be submissive, giggly and nice to men, don't irritate or anger them or make them feel uncomfortable, and they'll stop raping us and paying us less than them and beating us up when we piss them off

Where did I ever suggest being giggly and submissive? I do think there are far better ways to get things done than either being giggly and submissive or howling that all men are rapists.

Can you point out where anyone howled that 'all men are rapists' WMW?

I've read the whole thread and I can't find it - the word is 'potential'.

Nice emotive language though - women & howling.

The whole tone of your post, however, did seem to suggest that posters should be 'cleverer politically' (I think you said) to bring people over to 'our side'. Our side, what side is that? The side that doesn't want a violent crime committed against us? Why should anyone need persuading over that?

No one is howliing "all men are rapists"

"All men are potential rapists"=/= "All men are rapists"

We are saying all men have the tool (for want of a better word) to commit a rape.

We are also saying not all men have the lack of respect for a woman, and her right to consent to commit rape.

Why is this so difficult to grasp?

Physically, all men are potentiallly rapists. From a emotional/mental/whatever you call it POV, not all men are potential rapists. But we don't know how to seperate those who are and aren't, because there's no common factor amongst rapists that we can easily identify.

She won't be able to point out where anyone has said that all men are rapists, because no one has said that, because only non-feminists believe it.

If feminists believed all men were rapists, then they'd just give up demanding justice for rape victims and accept that men can't help being rapists so therefore it would be very unfair to punish them for something that is an inbuilt, inherent trait that they can't change. It's the height of irrationality, to insist someone gets punished for something they can't help doing, like complaining that cats eat birds. Feminists aren't as thick as that - the reason that we keep demanding that rapists are punished, is because we know that most men aren't rapists.

It's people who make excuses for rapists, who believe that all men are rapists. And in doing so, they insult every man who isn't one. And then they have the cheek to call feminists man-haters.

Tell you what whatmeworry why don't we agree to differ on this? You carry on being a handmaiden and I'll carry on being a feminist?

my DH just pointed this latest one in my direxction

www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&f=210&t=1419924&nmt=Mumsnet+-+NEST+OF+VIPERS%21%21%21%21