about SIL and DS1's Bris (circumcision) ?

[imlikeaironingboard]

I'm Jewish (Liberal) and DH counts himself as secular Jewish (as does all of his family).
His DBro (my BIL) married out - not a 'big' thing with them due to the whole non practicing/secular thing.

I'm due to give birth to DS1 (DC2) in a week.

They do not have children and it is only DH and BIL as siblings. our DC1 is a DD.

Both DH and BIL are circumcised.

She told us tonight that she would not be coming to DS1 Bris. The idea of doing that 'disgusts' her.

AIBU to be really upset and to think that she should have realised that marrying into a jewish family secular or not would mean that these sort of things would happen?

This has really really upset me - I have never got a hint of her feeling like this before.

ghoulionine - could you please tell me why you think its "the right thing to do".

Ah, thanks

ghoul. It is disgusting.

I am biting my tongue on the response I would like to give having read from onager that they are doing it so as not to endanger their OWN chances of salvation if they do not mutilate their baby - Because my INITIAL reaction to reading that, if it is true - would probably shock some posters here to the core that I could compare the two acts that popped up in my head. But it was honestly my first opinion when I read that. I am only not stating it because it is VERY emotive.

If that is even a TINY part of why parents do this - then I am more than disgusted, I am sickened to be sharing a PLANET with people like that. Or breathing in air that they may have previously breathed. It has nothing to do with racism etc, and everything to do with the fact that NO LOVING PARENT puts their own welfare, safety or 'salvation' above that of their child's. And anyone who DOES IMO, is not fit to be a parent.

That is a faith matter and I will not even get into it. I have done it many times before on these threads only to come to the realisation that the understanding I was showing to people was never given back to me. You can search old circumcisions threads if you want though

Posie, not once on asthread that had any religious connotation did we see eye to eye I was not expecting we would this timeso your comment does not surprise me and more to the point, coming from someone I do not actually know and care about you could write pages of "you disgust me ghoul!" it would not affect me in any way!

I doubt that the reason is for their own salvation - I don't think that anyone who has had their DS circumcised has said this. Generally the reasons seem to be for the "benefit" of their son, whether because it is a requirement for membership of the faith or belonging to the community. I don't think (though correct me if I am wrong) that Judaism has a concept of hell anyway. I think that salvation is more a Christian concept.

ghoulinine there can be no understanding regarding circumcision as a matter of faith. As far as I am concerned you and everyone else have a right to practice your own faith, you don't have a right to inflict it on other people, including your own child. Bodily automony is a human right and your religious beliefs should not be allowed to override another human beings rights.
I was born into a Christian family, my parents had me baptised. Someone poured water over my head and said some meaningless words. It didn't affect or change my body therefore no problem. Surely you can see the difference between that, and altering another person's body without their consent?[obviously without a medical reason].

"altering another person's body without their consent?[obviously without a medical reason]."

Where did I say it was done without their conscent?

ghoulioneine sorry, I thought you were referring to a baby. If your son was old enough to give informed consent then that is a different matter.

This is not a matter of faith or religion, stop hiding genital mutilation under the umbrella of 'God wants me to'. Isn't that the excuse the Yorkshire ripper had?

And I don't care much for child abuse so cool, but I will weep over someone on an anonymous internet forum saying they don't care about me....especially when they care so much about their own they cut a bit of his penis off.

Is that the same consent as you think any child gives to abuse? A lifetime of convincing them to be a good [insert magical bean monster here] they must have it done, or the one where the child is not indoctrinated it's whole life. I wonder if I ask my sons if they'd like to have it done they would agree,.

Surely rational thinking means you question faith anyway and realise that some of the ideas are outdated? I am Christian my faith means a lot to me but I certainly don't take all the ideas in the bible as gospel truth and a reflection of how life should be lived today.

Just because something has been done for years in the name of religion doesn't make it right and certainly doesn't mean it shouldn't be questioned.

Exactly what I was going to say Sirzy. I'm a practising Catholic, so a rabid anti-homosexual. Except I'm not, because I've got more sense and use the brains that the good lord gave me to reason things out for myself, which I am sure he would be perfectly happy with.

DD is baptised and being brought up Catholic. However, if the Catholic faith required physical mutilation at birth then I would have had no qualms in putting it on the back burner until such time as she made the decision for herself. No religion is more important than your child's wellbeing.

They were 5 and 6, it was done in medical environment for both of them although the method used were different (we did not like the full on surgical way that was performed on the eldest, it was more painfull and took slightly longer to heal. What we chose for the younger one (done 3 years after his brother) was called something like "plastibell" did not require any stitching or him being injected with a local anestetic. The only anestetic used was a cream. I was present and DS was talking about his holiday to the doctor during the few minutes the intervention took. As for his brother he needed pain killers for the first couople of days but there was no complications for either of them (infections, problems when urinating...)

Thy conscented willingly because for them it was natural in the sense that it was never something we made a secret about and then all of the sudden take them to be circumcised without any explanation.The procedure was explained in detail to them , as was the religious/hygiene side of it before hand and although they were a bit worried about pain (they would have had the same worry should they have needed a tooth extraction instead) but at no point did they say they really did not want it to happen or that they wished to wait longer. Waiting longer would not have been a problem for us.

Posie why don't you ask them?

The endoctrinment you are talking about is exactly the same you are "inflicting" (sorry I am aware that the word is by far to strong for what I mean but cannot at the moment think of a better one) to your DCS by raising them the way you do. Your concerns are different to mine possibly but as parents we all, one way ir another by raising our children, whether we want it or not, shaping our children into resembling us in a way be it what our beliefs (or is it believes?) or absence of them are.

good question someone asked above - can pro-cutting people answer that?

If your dd married into a culture/religion where female genital mutilation was the norm, would you attend the party to celebrate your granddaughter's 'ceremony?'

Actually, you you had married into such culture, would you have it done to your DD?

Sharrie - no it hadnt occured to me that OP has gone into labour because she had posted since the question has been asked by myself and countless others.

As for reporting my post Im totally bemused that you have picked out my post when others have shouted child abuser etc but whatever, report it if it makes you feel better

Ghoulonline- could you explain to me why your God wants men to be circumcised? I am really struggling to understand- is it a token sacrifice in place of a larger one? Like Abraham and the ram?

I'd hardly call 5/6 consenting.

And FWIW I don't indoctrinate my dcs into my beliefs, they are entitled to their own, at the moment two of them believe in God (and the tooth fairy and father Christmas) and they are entitled to do so. When they ask me why I don't believe in God I reply that I have never felt his existence, as they get older I may talk more about the evil practices that are done in the name of God.

Can a 5 or 6 year old really understand what they are consenting to, why and the long term implications? Personally I very much doubt even the most aware 5 year old could understand properly

hazel

I would like the op to answer that one, too. I thought maybe I was posting in invisible ink?