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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

about SIL and DS1's Bris (circumcision) ?

999 replies

imlikeaironingboard · 25/10/2011 01:05

I'm Jewish (Liberal) and DH counts himself as secular Jewish (as does all of his family).
His DBro (my BIL) married out - not a 'big' thing with them due to the whole non practicing/secular thing.

I'm due to give birth to DS1 (DC2) in a week.

They do not have children and it is only DH and BIL as siblings. our DC1 is a DD.

Both DH and BIL are circumcised.

She told us tonight that she would not be coming to DS1 Bris. The idea of doing that 'disgusts' her.

AIBU to be really upset and to think that she should have realised that marrying into a jewish family secular or not would mean that these sort of things would happen?

This has really really upset me - I have never got a hint of her feeling like this before.

OP posts:
SansaLannister · 25/10/2011 19:02

I think you are being slightly unreasonable to be really upset about it. Best she stays away, anyhow.

I mean, if they're not really religious as it is.

I have a mate I met at university who was brought up with no real religion, her folks were CoE but never religious. She tried on quite a few religions as a teen, always looking for something, her own family was blended several times over, her parents both divorcing and remarrying a number of times. Then she saw a Chabad house on campus when we were 20 and went in there.

She became a convert to Orthodox Judaism a few years later in part because she wanted her children to inherit her Judaism. Nearly 20 years on, she's very happy with her choice and I did attend the bris of her two sons. But as a woman we didn't really get to see anything. It was all sort of a big group of men round the baby.

crunchbag · 25/10/2011 19:06

I know Methe, it really makes me wonder how 'liberal' and 'secular' people really are.

I hold the same view regarding Christenings btw but at least that doesn't leave a permanent mark

FellatioNelson · 25/10/2011 19:06

"I sincerely hope for all your sons' sakes they never get HIV, herpes or penile cancer so you are spared asking yourself whether, if only you had given them the protection afforded by circumcision, they might not have caught these diseases."

I hope whoever said that has routinely had her daughter's breasts removed, along with any tonsils and appendix, just to be on the safe side. And also, once she has finished child-bearing I assume she has demanded full removal of ovaries and womb?

PosiesOfPoison · 25/10/2011 19:09

MrBloom, They don't love them any less they just consider their own beliefs to be more important than the feelings of their child. Most of us do that to an extent, but those feelings aren't usually causing the child immediate pain, healing scabs, possible infection, and a reduction in their penile sensitivity.

The hardening of the skin is not in question, btw, that's plain old common sense.

PosiesOfPoison · 25/10/2011 19:10

And it is abuse, it's disgusting abuse.

MrBloomsNursery · 25/10/2011 19:10

AIBU to be really upset and to think that she should have realised that marrying into a jewish family secular or not would mean that these sort of things would happen?

This has really really upset me - I have never got a hint of her feeling like this before

Going back to the original OP, NO, you are not being unreasonable to be upset, and YES, she should have realised that when marrying into a Jewish family, that this would be a normal traditional thing to do and should have been prepared for this inevitable event instead of insulting you and your religion.

SansaLannister · 25/10/2011 19:12

What if the child in question doesn't think it's abuse, what if they grow up and are happy they were circumcised (as Jews or Muslim men)?

MrBloomsNursery · 25/10/2011 19:14

Like I've said before, there is no blood/knives/pain. They put a ring under the foreskin and tie the foreskin with thread so it falls off within a week.

Stop trying to make it out to be a blood bath.

MrsStephenFry · 25/10/2011 19:16

No it isn't always. How about the baby that died in my town from a ritual circumcision a few years ago, you don't think that was a bloodbath? He died from haemorrage and shock. Sounds pretty bloody to me.

DutchGirly · 25/10/2011 19:16

So all the men in the world who have been circumcised are bad lovers and may have erectile dysfunction and...wait for it...PERSONALITY DISORDERS?? Surely that's a new one!! . Can you please refer to the posts which state that all circumcised men are bad lovers who may have erectile dysfunction and personality disorders
So let's see, my husband has a personality disorder because he was circumcised...As do all the men in my family... Excuse me if I feel that, that is complete bullshit. See before

It is NOT abuse. Don't tell me that parents who have their child circumcised love their child any less than a person who doesn't. What would you call the act of a having a medical procedure performed on a newborn without anaesthetic for no other reason than the parent's wishes? Do we agree that it is a medically unnecessary medical procedure which carries risks and that entails inflicting pain on a person who cannot either give consent nor fight back

Methe · 25/10/2011 19:16

It is still unnecessary MrsBlooms and it it still entirely about the parents and not the child.

I am sure, theoretically. you could remove a newborns ear, or finger with minimal pain but you bloody well wouldn't would you!

ShowOfHands · 25/10/2011 19:17

Oh that video Sad.

I'm sitting here cuddling 7wo ds and am not prone to hysterics and melodrama, but I've just reseen my dinner. The very idea of cutting off a part of my child is utterly, utterly abhorrent.

OP, as upset as you are- and I understand that you may have been hurt by what you perceived as a slur on your religious beliefs- I would imagine that your sil's assertions also come from feeling v upset indeed at the very idea of such a barbaric practice.

And it is no more no less than cutting off a part of a child as they scream in pain. Your justification of it MrBloom does not change the actuality of it. It is the infliction of pain and mutilation onto a vulnerable child.

HeresTheScaryThingBooyhoo · 25/10/2011 19:18

mrbloom lots of people abuse people they love. abuse and love are not mutually exclusive. and before you say it, lots of abused people love their abusers.

MrsStephenFry · 25/10/2011 19:18

and the slightest google tells us that many mohels use traditional methods using knives and scalpels. At least be honest about it.

SansaLannister · 25/10/2011 19:18

Surely the mohel isn't just some random guy off the street?

I mean, the ones at the bris ceremonies I've been to were also paediatricians (7 in total) who'd undergone additional training to become a mohel.

LaFilleSurLePont · 25/10/2011 19:19

Again Mrs Bloom I posted a link earlier that shows how a plastibell circumcision is done. here There are photos there showing exactly how it is done. It is not so simple as you make it out to be. There is cutting still involved,and yes blood.

LaFilleSurLePont · 25/10/2011 19:21

And you cannot get the ring under the foreskin without separating the foreskin from the glans,which is adhered to it,so it has to be forced and torn from the glans,rather like separating one's nail from the nailbed.

Look at my link please and then tell me if it's still a minor procedure which doesn't involve blood or cutting.

LaFilleSurLePont · 25/10/2011 19:21

And yes,there's plenty of pain.

HeresTheScaryThingBooyhoo · 25/10/2011 19:21

"YES, she should have realised that when marrying into a Jewish family, that this would be a normal traditional thing to do and should have been prepared for this inevitable event "

er, who said the SIL didn't realise this would be happening or was unprepared.

i realise circumcision happens, it doesn't make it any less disgusting, nor does the fact that i am aware of it reduce my right to say it is disgusting and abusive.

ShowOfHands · 25/10/2011 19:24

A friend's ds had the plastibell method (medically necessary). Oh I wish it was pain free.

I'm sure my grandmother loves my Dad but he was hit with a belt. It was tough love. They thought it would educate him. They were abusing him, of course they were. Because they didn't know better and it was what they'd had done to them and what their friends did with their children. But it's abuse. Even my grandmother admits it. And deeply regrets it.

seeker · 25/10/2011 19:24

""I sincerely hope for all your sons' sakes they never get HIV, herpes or penile cancer so you are spared asking yourself whether, if only you had given them the protection afforded by circumcision, they might not have caught these diseases.""

They could do a vasectomy at the same time- just in case they ever cause an unwanted pregnancy.

skybluepearl · 25/10/2011 19:27

You are entitled to your opinion and she is entitled to her opinion. Yes your brother married into a secular family and it is unfair to expect her to change her own personal beliefs.

I think it is wrong. Also having having a circumcised willy is not like wearing a condomn protection wise.

DutchGirly · 25/10/2011 19:27

"YES, she should have realised that when marrying into a Jewish family, that this would be a normal traditional thing to do and should have been prepared for this inevitable event "

Why should she expect this if it is a family who do not practise the religion? If they do not observe other Jewish traditions nor visit the synagogue , why should they have a Bris performed? That does not make sense whatsoever.

There are many Jews who do practise their religion who actively condone circumcision so I am not surprised that the SIL did not prepare for this'inevitable' event. Why is this event 'inevitable'? Death is ineviatable as well as paying tax, a Bris is not.

MrBloomsNursery · 25/10/2011 19:28

mrsStephenFry I've never heard of that story, but I will say, it must have been done by someone who was not a professional. Knives aren't used for this anymore. There are special clinics all around the UK with qualified doctors who can perform the circumcision these days.

dutch I'm sure you can scroll up before I made that comment and see who said each thing. By bad lovers I meant because they have a less sensitive penis with a circumcision Hmm
So are you trying to say I hate my unborn child (who I have gone through infertility to get pregnant with) just because I want him circumcised? Utter crap.

Original poster
imlikeaironingboard · 25/10/2011 19:29

Right - fuck

Some people said about cheeseburger or me pick and mixing or tradition. DH may be from a secular family I am not I may be a Liberal Jew but I am certainly a practicing one .
Okay so some of you don't agree with it, fine you are entitled to your opinions but kindly do not call me child abuser or call my love for my children into question. Act like adults you don't go around bashing out words like that. (well some people obviously do)
Not that it is is anyones concern but our Mohel is a surgeon and there are no bloody carving knives.
I'm not going to get into the pros and cons of it.

The fact that my SIL told me part of my faith disgusted me upset me, not pressed just a 'I wont be coming I find it disgusting' My best friend will not be attending because she doesn't agree with it - she told me that many many years ago. I don't mind that at all. She didn't call it disgusting! She explained her decision to us both ina sensible way now that fact is taht she probably does find it disgusting, but she had enough tact/thoughtfulness/love for me to explain herself fully and in a way that I accept full heartily. The fact SIL didn't is my issue. The fact that she never bought it up before (when we found out it was a boy or when pregnant with DC1 which we didn't know sex of) futher upsets me.

OP posts: