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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

about SIL and DS1's Bris (circumcision) ?

999 replies

imlikeaironingboard · 25/10/2011 01:05

I'm Jewish (Liberal) and DH counts himself as secular Jewish (as does all of his family).
His DBro (my BIL) married out - not a 'big' thing with them due to the whole non practicing/secular thing.

I'm due to give birth to DS1 (DC2) in a week.

They do not have children and it is only DH and BIL as siblings. our DC1 is a DD.

Both DH and BIL are circumcised.

She told us tonight that she would not be coming to DS1 Bris. The idea of doing that 'disgusts' her.

AIBU to be really upset and to think that she should have realised that marrying into a jewish family secular or not would mean that these sort of things would happen?

This has really really upset me - I have never got a hint of her feeling like this before.

OP posts:
worraliberty · 25/10/2011 01:10

I wouldn't go either as I don't believe in mutilating babies for religious reasons but that's my personal feeling and I do believe 'each to their own'

YABU to be upset by her feelings because she hasn't (I take it) taken on the Jewish faith or made any promises?

As long as she's not stopping your BIL from going, you should both respect each others feelings on this one Smile

Northernlurker · 25/10/2011 01:12

Well look - she hasn't avowed your faith, she isn't being a hypocrite, she just doesn't like it and tbh I sort of respect her for saying as much. She didn't marry in - because she hasn't become a Jew. She married a Jew and this aspect is something she does not wish to condone by her presence. I think it's something you just have to let go. I assume sil and bil have no sons (yet?) - could be interesting!

ravenAK · 25/10/2011 01:14

She's absolutely correct not to attend - I'd feel the same tbh. I'd accept that I couldn't prevent you from going ahead with the procedure, but there is no way whatsoever that I'd condone it by attending.

As your BIL's wife, she has to agree/negotiate with him what they do re: any future ds of their own - she does not, as your SIL, have to agree with your parenting choices.

Good for her; I think the best response you could make would be to accept & respect her decision & her honesty, tbh.

AgentZigzag · 25/10/2011 01:17

Just as you think she's being unreasonable to not take this part of her life with her DH as a given, you are being equally unreasonable to think other people might not have concerns about it.

I think she was as subtle as a brick telling you it disgusts her, but are you saying you think she should not feel free to voice her opinions, and just to put up and shut up?

I don't think getting married to someone from a different faith means you have to agree with every part of the culture they were brought up in, it's possible to like some parts but not others.

What was it that made you feel comfortable with the Bris?

Original poster
imlikeaironingboard · 25/10/2011 01:23

She is more than welcome to her view and I would stand up for her to the more orthodox jews in both our families for her to believe that. But to tell me that a intrinctant part of my faith something that I see as bonding my son to thousands of years of history and a group, 'disgusts' her. That upset me - surely there are more tactful ways to tell someone (who you know was practising) .

no she didn't marry in - DH family are all secular.

OP posts:
worraliberty · 25/10/2011 01:27

Well to be honest, yes she could have been more tactful but then again, it is a very emotive subject when it comes to young babies.

Blimey, a parent deciding they have the right to get their babies ears pierced causes a lot of blood to boil on here so chopping bits off their genitals is always going to be a strong point to a lot of people outside of your faith.

Surely you can understand that no matter what you personally believe?

scottishmummy · 25/10/2011 01:31

families usually have disagreements,this is her Vs ideology
Keep it cordial,you won't change her mind she won't change yours
File it under f for fight

aurynne · 25/10/2011 01:32

How cutting off a part of your DS's foreskin, usually done without any kind of anesthetic in babies, could NOT be disgusting is what I would question, TBH. When a person sees things through the veil of religion, anything can seem rational. But circumcision itself, when performed as a ritual and not a needed medical intervention, IS barbaric.

Northernlurker · 25/10/2011 01:33

The circumcision of infants is something that has enormours significance to you and those of your faith. Surely your sil - an outsider to your faith - saying it disgusts her is not enough to remove that significance? I really don't see why her view is given so much weight? It doesn't disgust you - quite the opposite - and that's all that matters.

ravenAK · 25/10/2011 01:34

Well, OK, 'disgust' is quite emotive.

In her shoes I might initially have declined the invitation without much further explanation - if you pressed me on it I'd've told you that I thought it was abusive & cruel, though.

Hers really isn't an unusual reaction, & it's maybe a tad naive for you not to realise beforehand that this could be how your non-Jewish SIL, married to your secular BIL, might react?

Original poster
imlikeaironingboard · 25/10/2011 01:34

I can but she told me that a part of my faith disgusted her. I wouldn't tell anyone part of their faith disgusted me.
DH is upset on top as wanted them (BIL and SIL) to be Kvatter/in.

OP posts:
scottishmummy · 25/10/2011 01:34

Everyone I know used emla cream

Northernlurker · 25/10/2011 01:36

Can I suggest btw that a debate on the rights and wrongs of circumcision per se is not particularly helpful to the OP. She asking for help with her relationship with her sil not for opinions on her plans for her son.

I think it's a valid debate but this is not the thread for it.

scottishmummy · 25/10/2011 01:36

Most Rabbis are ok emla,v common

worraliberty · 25/10/2011 01:36

Well if I were put in a position where I had to be honest, it disgusts me too.

And that's coming from someone who was raised as a Catholic and turned my back on a religion that also contained parts that disgust me.

Perhaps she could have been less honest and less vocal about her disgust but if she had simply told you she refuses to attend, surely you'd ask her why?

Northernlurker · 25/10/2011 01:39

If you were asking her to take part in the ceremony, of course she had to be honest about it. YOur sil has a duty to your son too and she obviously feels she cannot participate in something which she does not feel he will benefit from. I know this is really upsetting for you but your son has a principled and brave aunt who will speak her mind - that has to be a good thing, even when you wish she thought differently.

aurynne · 25/10/2011 01:39

"she told me that a part of my faith disgusted her" --> if someone told you that female genital mutilation was part of their religion... wouldn't it disgust you too? Or does religion trump any moral values in favour of just accepting whatever a book (or "tradition") tells you?

scottishmummy · 25/10/2011 01:40

So sil spoke v bluntly.offended yes thats up to you,but she's not Impeding or hindering your wishes,so yes you're annoyed but no I. Wouldn't make a deal of it.given you have to remain cordial etc

Original poster
imlikeaironingboard · 25/10/2011 01:44

Yes it would disgusted me aurynne but i would never tell them that it disgusted me.
if they asked i would say that i disagree with that part same as some of my cousins know i don't agree with them wearing wigs or not touching men they are not related to.
I do not go around telling people part of their faith disgusts me.

OP posts:
AgentZigzag · 25/10/2011 01:44

You can't discuss what the OP wrote without discussing circumcision Northern?

And why shouldn't posters talk about their views?

Threads go off on all sorts of tangents, although talking about circumcision isn't going off at a tangent in this case as it's the subject in the title and OP.

ohnoshedittant · 25/10/2011 01:51

She wasn't very tactful, but it's a very emotive subject. I'd agree with sil that mutilating babies is disgusting tbh. I think she is absolutely right to refuse to attend if she feels this way about it. It doesn't necessarily mean she didn't 'realise these sort of things would happen'. Maybe you should have realised how she would feel when you invited her, expecting her to come.

'I can but she told me that a part of my faith disgusted her. I wouldn't tell anyone part of their faith disgusted me'

Really? Even if they were into FGM or child sacrifice? There are some really awful things done under the 'it's my religion' banner. To expect everyone to sit quietly while it goes on because it's 'someones religion' is ridiculous.

worraliberty · 25/10/2011 01:51

And without even knowing your SIL I'm quite sure she doesn't 'go around telling people parts of their faith disgusts her' Smile

Let's bring this back to the point in hand. You invited her to your son's Bris and she declined and gave an honest reason.

Really if you truly believe you're doing the right thing for your own baby, your SIL's reason for not attending shouldn't even register with you.

scottishmummy · 25/10/2011 01:52

Look your contention here is sil was forthright and in your opinion disrespectful?Well tbh she's gave pov,noted by you and likely she won't attend.given sil has Jewish husband they must surely talk etc and all of you need to agree cordial distance on this occasion

Northernlurker · 25/10/2011 01:52

Of course you can - she is asking if she is being unreasonable to be upset by her sil's reaction to a parenting decision she has made. I think she is unreasonable to let it upset her as it does concern a highly controversial area however 're-trying' the issue is hardly required.

worraliberty · 25/10/2011 01:55

I don't see it as re-trying but more people giving a 'outside the faith' rational POV.

I know when I was brought up within the Catholic faith, I was far from open minded to other people's points of view.

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