about SIL and DS1's Bris (circumcision) ?

[imlikeaironingboard]

I'm Jewish (Liberal) and DH counts himself as secular Jewish (as does all of his family).
His DBro (my BIL) married out - not a 'big' thing with them due to the whole non practicing/secular thing.

I'm due to give birth to DS1 (DC2) in a week.

They do not have children and it is only DH and BIL as siblings. our DC1 is a DD.

Both DH and BIL are circumcised.

She told us tonight that she would not be coming to DS1 Bris. The idea of doing that 'disgusts' her.

AIBU to be really upset and to think that she should have realised that marrying into a jewish family secular or not would mean that these sort of things would happen?

This has really really upset me - I have never got a hint of her feeling like this before.

I think she was not being unreasonable to say that she did not want to be part of it and give the reason why. She could probably have used a word other than 'disgusted', of course, in the interests of good family relations.

But she feels very strongly about this issue. I must disagree that you can never tell someone that it is your personal view that something they do in the name of their faith is a terrible thing. Particularly if what they do in the name of that faith is something done to someone else, someone who has no choice in the matter. Many things have been done to people over the years in the name of faith. Many of them were indeed terrible things and they needed to be challenged and ended.

If someone wants to make the choice to chop off a part of their own body in the name of their faith, and they are old enough to understand that decision - that is their choice. When they say it is their faith to do it to someone else, someone vulnerable and someone who is physically unable to resist, it is naturally something that is going to provoke a strong response in people.

I think we have to look at the 'disgust' in the context of other similar things which cause problems across cultures. Eating pork, for example, would genuinely disgust many Muslims and Jews, and whilst they may accept, begrudgingly, that I love to eat it, they are fairly certain to decline any offer to dine with me, if I tell them there will be a whole suckling pig on a platter right under their nose.

OP-you are doing what you think is right.

You must know that a lot of people disagree with circumcision on babies & are indeed disgusted by it.

SIL is doing what she thinks is right-good for her, I say.

I don´t see why she should try to hide her feelings just because she is family-or attend practises that she disagrees with just because she has married a non practising(?) jewish man.

Yabu .

Your SIL is being honest with you. She is perfectly entitled to find genital mutilation of newborn babies disgusting and to refuse to have any part of it. Your religious beliefs justify this practice, and it's not illegal, but you really don't have the right to be outraged over your SIL's feelings. I'm amazed you have the nerve to be upset that someone has said they don't want to be part of a genital mutilation ceremony.

Your SIL fell in love with a man and married him. That doesn't mean she also has to agree to be part of religious ceremonies which she finds abhorrent.

"OP-you are doing what you think is right."

But which by all objective measures is wrong.

your sil is being rude and unreasonable. The majority of people on mn dont agree with circumsion (and i cant spell it) but, if you take out that aspect of it, what youa re left with is a rude woman who has just denigrated everything to do with her dh's family values. she can have that opinion, but she should keep it to herself.

this specifically states that the emla cream should not be used on the genitals of babies/children.

FWIW, I am disgusted that any caring mother can allow her baby to undergo this procedure. And if I was invited to attend, let alone be an active part of such an event, I would tell you the exact reason why.

YABU to be upset that your SIL was honest with you - if she had just said no thanks, or claimed to be busy that day or whatever, you would have still been upset because you would have thought she was snubbing you and your DS - she isn't, she is snubbing a barbaric procedure.

Why because something is "religious" should anyone just accept it? It's just a made up set of rules - where is the questioning and the prioritising?

No one could make me have my children mutilated without anaesthetic, I have to question anyone who does, whether they are offended or not is irrelevant compared to the pain being inflicted on an innocent baby who may grow up to completely denounce his parents religion anyway.

Well, again, whether it is 'mutilation' or not entirely depends on your POV. But I agree - if you truly believe it is necessary, either for religious observance or hygiene, fine. But why, in modern, civilised, humane, risk-averse 2011 would you DO this to your BABY with no anaesthetic, at the hands of anyone other than a qualified surgeon? If your child needed a tooth extracted, or a toe nail removed, or an earlobe cut off would you just tie your child to the nearest fence so they can't struggle and let someone loose with some pliers or a stanley knife, and 5mls of calpol? Of course you wouldn't!

Voice of reason Fellatio :o as far as I'm concerned, if it's not medically necessary then it falls firmly in the mutilation camp.

As would having an appendix removed without anaesthetic because we function perfectly well without one.

Also, if you are OK with it, why does it bother you that a non jewish person isn´t?

"Because my parents did it" is not a sufficient reason to do anything. Even if their parents did it, and their parents before that, and their parents before that.

Your SIL was probably surprised and shocked. It had probably never occurred to her that you would be considering this, given that the family she has married into are of Jewish descent but do not practise the religion. If one of my friends or relatives told me that they were planning on cutting bits off their babies I would be shocked too, and I would probably say something that's not terribly tactful.

I'd be interested to hear how much your DH is keen on going through with this. Presumably he doesn't actually think that God requires it, so why does he want his son to have parts of his penis removed?

If it genuinely disgusts your SIL, why should she have to lie about that? It genuinely disgusts me too. And I would be just as honest with you as your SIL has been.

Truthfully, you are disappointed because you were hoping your SIL would play a big part of the ceremony, and not only has she refused to do something you wished for, but she also holds a POV that is diametrically opposed to yours. I can understand your disappointment - but your SIL was just being HONEST about her reasons for refusal. I would have refused for exactly the same reasons as your SIL.

The thought of unnecessarily chopping parts of my baby off for a non-medical reason DOES disgust me. I can't help that, that is my POV. Nothing anyone can do or say will EVER change that. Am I to LIE to people about my reasons for fear of upsetting them? Because I am afraid that I am not the type of person who will hide their views on things - and I feel VERY strongly about this, and WOULD respond that I couldn't because the thought of it disgusts me.

Why are you taking this to heart and being upset by this? Your SIL has a valid viewpoint - no more or less valid than YOUR viewpoint, and she is standing by her principles and viewpoint. It's not like she is planning to burst in shouting and ruin the ceremony, is it? NO, she has made her viewpoint very clear, in a non-confrontational way, and is stepping aside to let you and your DH (the baby's parents) make their own decisions, but without getting involved in something she disagrees with.

Lots of Mohels and imams who do ritual circumcisions have medical qualifications though, and use lidocaine.

There are benefits to circumcision in general, and added benefits to it being performed in infancy. The fact that a circumcision is not necessary (eg to correct a condition) does not mean it does not carry significant long term benefits.

It is a myth that it affects sexual satisfaction.

There is currently a huge drive by the WHO to increase circumcision rates in Africa. This will save millions of lives.

The WHO position paper is worth reading.

Africa is hardly suburban England though

If Mohels and Immams use Lidocaine why do qualified surgeons use GA?

Well, people can and do move.

We have relatives on 4 continents. Perhaps in a generation or two your children will too?

YABU - She is just telling you her view- she isn't trying to stop you doing it. If the family was religious and believed this was necessary to comply with the religion i think she could have been a bit more tactful but as it is you are doing it for tradition and because your parent's did which imo shouldn't constrain someone from expressing a view.

I am not of the view that because something has always been that way it should be kept that way each generation/individual should make up their own minds otherwise we would stagnate

The WHO recommends LA.

Our Paediatric Urologist recommends GA.

He also recommends GA and counselling for the victims of botched ritual circumcisions and has given evidence in a trial of an Imam who has butchered several young babies.

OP further up the thread you said FGM disgusts you in response to a question by Aureynne, can I ask what the difference is between FGM and male circumcision? Its still cutting off bits of a baby for no good reason.

Circumcision digusts me also and I am totally in agreement with your SIL, good for her

Presumably the WHO recommends LA because if they are dealing with circumcisions of babies en-masse it is easier, cheaper and less risky than GA, given the specific environment they are in - ie. the developing world.

Your SIL married a MAN, not a faith or a family. She is an adult human in her own right and is perfectly entitled to express her opinion on a matter about which many people feel should not be allowed at all.

Although a large percentage of my own family are Jewish I have no strong feelings about Bris either way so I would make no comment but if, say, your faith was going to oblige you to slit the throat of a sheep, by feck you'd regret inviting me or opening up the discussion!

In short, the woman has a right to her opinoin and to express it to you. You don't like it? Tough, that's life!

Gah! Dreadful, nonsensical English, sorry. More tea and less work required. :)

Part of my family is Jewish and they have had the sense not to invite me to a bris, not to mention playing a part in the ceremony when all my instincts would be telling me to take the baby and run. I wouldn't have seen it as an honour, more that it would imply that I was condoning this treatment of a baby which I couldn't do.

I don't see your point about your ultra-orthodox relatives. I have ultra-orthodox relatives and their behaviours are not physically harmful to their children. I have no issues with my ultra-orthodox relatives and actually have more respect for them as they haven't picked and chosen from Judaism but follow the lot.

Why have you chosen to ignore most of the religion but continue to circumcise? Why not pick a different arbitrary bit of your religion to follow? What kind of person (for example, I don't know if you do this) is willing to cut part of their son off but not willing to give up cheeseburgers in the name of religion? I know that it is culturally acceptable to you to pick certain bits, but from the perspective of this outsider it is odd.

If my family asked me about circumcision they would get plenty of my opinions, I wouldn't hold back as I would hope to persuade them not to do it. I don't think religion has or should have a special exemption from being criticised. Suggesting it does implies that you know that it is irrational and shouldn't be open to rational debate.

As for her knowing that marrying into a Jewish family would mean that this sort of thing was part of life, what did you expect her to do, decide that it was make or break and not marry your BIL?

I think that your response comes from the same place as your SIL's response - you both feel strongly about this.