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Original poster

10 Tips to Prevent Rape

688 replies

coldwed · 19/10/2011 09:43

Should this leaflet be handed out to the public?

www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x2141096

OP posts:
StewieGriffinsMom · 21/10/2011 20:53

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

giyadas · 21/10/2011 20:58

I think you should start one SGM. I'm rubbish at starting threads.

Whatmeworry · 21/10/2011 21:02

Don't be silly, the state doesn't have to prosecute rape unless a rape victim makes a complaint. If both the perpetrator and the victim are happy with the rape, then the state doesn't need to get involved

My point was that you can't even have a law that defines something technically as a rape if both the perpetrator and victim are happy with the situation - therein lies unworkable definitions, which allows legal grey areas, and laws that are seen as asses.

This area is hard enough without creating dumb situations like that.

AyeScream · 21/10/2011 21:05

I mentioned R v Brown. Did you look at the link?

Wooooooooooooooppity · 21/10/2011 21:08

I really don't understand your point.

Already up to 90% of rapes go unreported and of those that are reported, only 6% result in a conviction.

We already have a rape law which isn't working. Do you really think that insisting on continual consent, would make it work less well?

It can't actually work much less well than it does at the moment.

KRITIQ · 21/10/2011 21:08

I'm finding some of this discussion strange and unsettling. Something doesn't sit right with me about a feminist badgering a woman, repeatedly insisting that she was raped when she doesn't believe she was. It comes across from the screen at least as patronising, disbelieving and invalidating of the person's experience and feelings. Just as you can't badger someone into believing that they weren't raped when they believe they were, you can't badger someone into believing that they were raped when they believe they weren't.

It could be that examples of sexsomnia in the media (i.e. as a successful defence against rape charges,) may not be typical of the situ for people with sleep disorders that cause sexual disinhibition. When a nurse, I remember there were some patients who walked, talked, became violent and even wanked when they were very much asleep, so I can accept that it could be a valid phenomenon. But, like others who have physical or mental illnesses that mean they can be a risk to the safety of others, it's their responsibility to have treatment and manage their risks, which I'd imagine for many would mean living alone and eschewing relationships. Maybe there are some able to manage the risks while being in a relationship. I don't know enough about the specific phenomenon, but I'm not convinced that it's a fake condition and only used as a license to rape with impunity.

thunderboltsandlightning · 21/10/2011 21:12

This is a general discussion, if people want to bring their personal experiences into it in order to defend some men's rapist behaviour then why wouldn't they expect that experience is up for examination.

There is a prior definition of rape that isn't changed just because someone decides it doesn't suit them.

KRITIQ · 21/10/2011 21:12

On another note, I'm for a change in the law where the defence has to show that consent was given, rather than the prosecution having to prove a negative - that consent was not given. I think when it comes to prevention work, getting the message across to girls and boys, women and men not just that no means no, but the only thing that actually means "yes" is a very clear "yes." It's about recognising and respecting a person's personal/sexual boundaries, not it being okay to stretch and push boundaries as far as you can, so long as you can get away with it.

Whatmeworry · 21/10/2011 21:16

AyeSream - I note that law is seen as an ass... and that's my point, in that it's clear that judgement would be unworkable if ever tested - no one believes in it.

StewieGriffinsMom · 21/10/2011 21:17

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

AnyPhantomFucker · 21/10/2011 21:17

I don't believe "sexsomnia" exists

Really I don't

These threads (and others) have never convinced me of it

I remain unconvinced

I accept that sexually deviant behaviour exists, and that some people are happy to excuse and rationalise it for their own peace of mind

But this "pure" excuse to penetrate someone who is sleeping ?

no

squeakyfreakytoy · 21/10/2011 21:18

Thunderbolts, (you really remind me of Dittany by the way)....

If a woman says she has not been raped by her husband, and has willingly gone to his bed, in the full knowledge that he may wake her up trying to have sex, and she has said to him that she is perfectly happy with that, then it is NOT rape.

My husband has often said to me, I will wake you you up with sex in the morning (or words to that effect).. and I have said fine, I will look forwards to it.

It is NOT rape.. no matter how many times you want to try and make it suit you to convince a woman that she has been raped, and by doing so in such a patronising, condescending manner.

KRITIQ · 21/10/2011 21:18

Sorry thunder, but imho, you were badgering. Sometimes lawyers, police, etc. also badger women to admit that they were raped, that they were beaten by a husband, usually because they want them to press charges, leave the husband, whatever.

However, I believe that until and unless a woman has come to the place in her own mind where she believes she was raped, was a victim of domestic violence, whatever, she should never be forced to agree to someone else's definition of her experience. In my mind, that is undermining, disempowering and removing her agency.

AyeScream · 21/10/2011 21:24

So what chasnges would you make to the law, Whatmeworry?

KRITIQ, I wholeheartedly agree with the proof of seeking consent thing. How is the victim ever going to prove a negative under this system? It'll never happen, though, because of the way our legal system works. The whole "innocent until proven guilty" is about the prosecution proving its case. "I didn't say yes" isn't enough,

thunderboltsandlightning · 21/10/2011 21:24

I think what is undermining, disempowering and removing the agency of someone is raping them whilst they are sleeping. We see things differently KRITIQ.

MonstrouslyNarkyPuffin · 21/10/2011 21:27

Great. Now a good thread has been thoroughly derailed. Thanks.

KRITIQ · 21/10/2011 21:29

Any, I don't know whether sexsomnia exists or not. I know there are sleep disorders and witnessed some very odd behaviour from patients at night when I was a nurse, particularly those with nocturnal hypoxia. I'm suspicious of the cases where it's been used as a defence rape. What I don't understand anyhow is why men aren't still convicted of rape (no one disputes the rape happened!) but if there is evidence of their "diminished responsibility," that would be taken into account say in sentencing - as would be the case for example if the perpetrator had say a learning disability.

I still believe the onus is on the sufferer of any sleeping disorder to make sure they are not a risk to any other person. I suppose there may be people who are willing to be in a relationship with someone who could cause them harm because of a physical or mental condition. Most folks would probably feel that entering into a relationship like that would be too risky, not a good idea at all. But, I just feel uneasy about insisting that those who make those choices are outright wrong and worthy only of condemnation.

Whatmeworry · 21/10/2011 21:31

So what chasnges would you make to the law, Whatmeworry

I would more try to ensure that the law could never, ever work in the way Thunderbolt wants it to - in that way lies total madness.

AyeScream · 21/10/2011 21:32

It is rape, under the law. Don't report it to the police and write to your MP to get the law changed if you feel that strongly about it. No-one's going to make a citizen's arrest.

KRITIQ, I am struggling immensely with that "invalidating an experience vs validating another almost identical experience" thing here. Can you bear with me for a bit?

JanHal · 21/10/2011 21:35

KRITIQ : we have a situation on this thread where a poster was called a rapist by someone referencing to another thread about sexomnia. That posters wife has given her thoughts and by her own admission is the one awake. And therefore is consenting.

So we have some calling her husband a rapist by technical default, and others stating that as she is awake she is the one technically guilty of sexual assault because he is the sleeping one despite him being the one who initiated sex.

Seems very messed up.

AyeScream · 21/10/2011 21:35

x post, KRITIQ. Bear with me....

Suggestions, please, Whatmeworry. You demanded them on the other thread and I provided without any acknowledgement from you, so time to step up.

KRITIQ · 21/10/2011 21:36

Apologies Puffin. I didn't mean to derail. I realise that what started as a thread with a clever twist of ironic humour (I do think the poster hits home and we use something along similar lines in work to illustrate how bloody daft rape myths are!) It did move onto more serious discussion and people sharing quite painful experiences, which hopefully will be supporting and validating for people perhaps still coming to terms with things that have happened to them. That is what I hope folks will still take away from this thread.

I will leave now as I don't want to contribute any further to an atmosphere of tension and conflict.

thunderboltsandlightning · 21/10/2011 21:40

I'm still somewhat astonished that on a thread about rape, that challenging the excuses of rapists is somehow seen as derailing.

Support is a necessity unfortunately, but what is actually more important is stopping rape and stopping rapists, including challenging rapists' excuses like sexsomnia, so that there aren't any more women in the position of needing to be supported or having to recover from rapes, including rapes by men pretending to be asleep.

AnyPhantomFucker · 21/10/2011 21:40

WMW pretty much never answers questions put to him

he likes to throw them in though

MonstrouslyNarkyPuffin · 21/10/2011 21:40

It's not you personally KRITIQ. It's just a really good thread that reaches a lot of people. However relevant the other issue is it's a very small part of a very big issue to focus on.