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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

to think that parents contribute to the sleep issues?

397 replies

ChocolateBiscuitCake · 12/10/2011 14:22

Disclaimer: I have two DC who have not always been brilliant sleepers and go through patches of wakefullness at night/early in the morning (!) but...

I have been reading some of the sleep threads and am really surprised by the number of people who have older babies or toddlers who sleep SO badly whilst claiming that they don't know how to improve the situation and won't do any form of CC.

From my experiences, babies have to learn how to sleep well and they do this by you setting up routines and helping them along the way. If you feed your 12 month old milk in the middle of the night, they will keep waking for milk in the night. If you bring them into your bed, they will want to be in your bed. If you have to lie down and hold their hand, they will expect you to be there holding their hand if they wake up.

Nothing changes overnight and teaching your baby/child to sleep well takes patience and consistency. But leaving a baby to cry for 5 minutes is not going to hurt it and ignoring a toddler whilst you drag them back to bed and not give into their ridiculous demands is not difficult. We are the adults!

AIBU to think that some parents need to be a bit tougher rather than find some miracle cure for poor sleep habits?

OP posts:
NotFromConcentrate · 12/10/2011 14:38

We co-slept and never did any form of controlled crying, and I too have two excellent sleepers. So there we go, different things work for different people.

Horses for courses, and all that. For that reason, I think YABU. The life of a parent is hard enough as it is, why indulge in the bashing of other parents?

CaptainNancy · 12/10/2011 14:38

She said 'parents need to be a bit tougher rather than find some miracle cure for poor sleep habits'.

I'm saying being tougher won't actually work in lots of cases.

Rivenwithoutabingle · 12/10/2011 14:39

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

mustdache · 12/10/2011 14:42

oh right Hmm

so it worked for you so must work for everyone else then?

so, when's your book out, OP?

DumSpiroSpero · 12/10/2011 14:42

ignoring a toddler whilst you drag them back to bed and not give into their ridiculous demands is not difficult.

Doing it umpteen times a night when you have a full day at work the next day is not a lot of fun I can assure you. It's a lot easier to let them climb in bed and nod off with you.

Granted that makes an alternative rod for the back and those of us in that and similar position perhaps shouldn't moan quite as much, but we are all individuals. Parents have to deal with these things as they feel works for them and not all kids will react the same way to what the 'experts' recommend - that's life!

reallytired · 12/10/2011 14:43

Ha! Ha!

My two and half year old still doesn't sleep through the night. Its nothing to do with lack of "balls". (incidently both my daugher and I lack "balls".)

Its is a diliberate parenting decision I have chosen to make to allow my dd to disturb me in the night. I want her to know she is loved unconditionally. I do not want her to feel scared or to think that crying for help is hopeless.

I feel that the expectation of thinking a baby should sleep through the night is wrong. I feel its better to co sleep than do controlled crying.

I did controlled crying with my son and I really regret it. My dd is far more confident than ds.

DuelingFanjo · 12/10/2011 14:44

you should write a book.

Original poster
ChocolateBiscuitCake · 12/10/2011 14:44

DeWe - I suspect you realised that he wasn't well and took him to the doctor??

I am referring to babies who wake every 15 minutes or toddlers who climb stairgates and start shouting for food. I have been there, I promise, and my children have tried it all on but I still think that parents need to firm up and realise that if you then lie in bed with them, or cook them a three course dinner in the night, then they will want you to do that EVERY night because they have got your attention!

OP posts:
TheBestWitch · 12/10/2011 14:45

I agree with chocolatebiscuit about the ridiculous demands. DD would keep it up until the early hours if I let her - a couple of recent favourites were calling me up because she couldn't find her slipper (she wanted to sleep in them) and calling me up because she needed help to button up daddy's shirt because she wanted to wear it in bed!

CaptainNancy · 12/10/2011 14:46

reallytired- my almost 6 yo doesn't sleep through- and I am as tough as fucking nails about bedtime.

She is quiet, in bed, but she cannot sleep through.

Obviously it's all my fault

CaptainNancy · 12/10/2011 14:47

ridiculous demands wash over me- I have heard them all.

LikeABlackFlameCandleBNQ · 12/10/2011 14:47

ChocolateBiscuit, I heart you Grin

I struggle a lot with the viewpoint "my baby will naturally fall into it's own routine". Yep, it will, but probably not one that involves most of their sleep happening in the hours of darkness.

As with counting, tying shoelaces, driving, these things need to be taught.

Why CANT you teach a newborn baby, or at least make a start at teaching them....they know no different!

Similarly, a lot of "my 12mo still wakes 4 times a night" and "My DH has had to sleep in the spare room since LO was born 4 years ago" threads are the product of NO sleep traning, of babies not being guided into a routine.

It is not cruel to place a baby into its own moses basket / cot. It is cruel to inflict on your child years of not being able to self settle due to parents mollycoddling their baby from birth with the notion that they cannot in some way guide them towards a restful sleep attitude.

LikeABlackFlameCandleBNQ · 12/10/2011 14:47

Disclaimer: I am wearing flameproof knickers today

JoandMax · 12/10/2011 14:48

Grumpla - your post was lovely, nearly everyone I know disagrees with how we are allowing DS2 to be at night!

Also, we did the same with DS1 and he started sleeping well around age 2. Now 3.3 yrs and runs into bed at 7pm and we don't hear a peep until 7am when ge starts singing. He even stays in bed until we go onto his room! I love knowing he's never cried himself to sleep and that he has such a good association with bed

Original poster
ChocolateBiscuitCake · 12/10/2011 14:48

I think Riven, you know that the thread doesn't therefore apply.

OP posts:
TheTenantOfWildfellHall · 12/10/2011 14:50

Captain Nancy and Riven - but the OP is talking about specific circumstances where the parents create sleep problems by their own behaviours, not ones where there are biological/medical reasons for sleep problems.

They are no less tiring, but no one would suggest that a bit of tough love or a few good techniques are going to resolve those.

I'm convinced my DCs sleep routines are directly attributable to the fact they were in SCBU. No one fussed around them in the night. Their needs were met, and they were returned to their plastic boxes. Obviously, I'm not suggesting that's the way to go, but it certainly meant that by 2 weeks of age, they had good sleep routines. Doesn't mean they never woke up - feeds and nappy changes still happened, but I didn't make it a fun time.

Original poster
ChocolateBiscuitCake · 12/10/2011 14:52

LIkeablackflme - exactly what I was trying to say! We should write that book together!! Wink

OP posts:
Hullygully · 12/10/2011 14:52

I dunno

Rivenwithoutabingle · 12/10/2011 14:54

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

TheBrideofFrankenstein · 12/10/2011 14:55

Does every thread really need a "unless there are SN or other health needs" disclaimer?

Unfortunately yes. Any behaviour/sleep/education thread will always have parents of SN saying that the OP has willfully, cruelly and deliberately ignored their circumstances, despite it being abundantly obvious that they were not the target of the OP's ire. Such is MN.

BertieBotts · 12/10/2011 14:57

Wanting to rearrange teddies and trying to force out poos aren't actually what they want though. They've learned that just asking for a cuddle or some reassurance isn't allowed, so they're coming up with increasingly desperate ways to try and tell you they still need that.

I sit with DS until he falls asleep, but he doesn't need that. If DP ever puts him to bed DS tells him to go downstairs! He just prefers it, and why not? It makes no difference to me to sit with him for 10-20 minutes.

Dialsmavis · 12/10/2011 14:57

I agree OP, and of course you are not talking about DC with SN or health probs. It is totally up to other people how they raise their DC and if they make a conscious decision to totally with the their DC'c natural and changing sleep patterns then then fair enough. But one thing that really gets my goat is people on MN who assume because my children sleep well I left them to scream for hours on end.

Nothing could be further from the truth!

With DS I did nothing at all apart from having a good bedtime routine

DD slept through from a couple of moths old but started waking again around 15 weeks (we had also been to Oz for 3 weeks which didn't help) The wakings went from once to twice to three times and with every feed I added in the night she became less interested in BF in the day. I was told to go with it and feed in the night as much as she liked. Sorry but bollocks to that! I offered her water and gave her a cuddle, left the room and if she cried (not just grizzled for 30 secs) I went back in. She woke up 3 times the first night (once I had to go back in 3 times), twice the next night, once the following night and went back to sleeping through from then on (illness and teething aside obviously).

But I am seen as some CIO it out bitch by some.

welliesandpyjamas · 12/10/2011 14:57

Another horses for courses vote here. So many diffeerent expereiences, so many different little peresonalities, so many approaches....who can dictate what is rightor not? So yes, I think YABU to blame the parents for sleep issues.

DS1... First born with clueless parents...felt obliged by social expectations and books to make him sleep at certain times in his room only and punish any desire to sway from this...controlled crying...years and years of battles over bedtimes and staying asleep... And now what do we have? An 8 year old who is scared of being alone in the bedroom, who hates bedtime, sleeps restlessly, and still has occasional night terrors.

DS2... Allowed to fall asleep on me and put to bed, allowed to have cuddles and/or milk during the night, allowed to come in to our bed any time he wanted, shares a room with big brother happily...And now what do we have? A 2 year old who is happy to go to bed, and sleeps deeply and properly all night.

But that is just my experience. I know which approach I will follow next time. OP, you can't blame parents and tell them which approach to use. Let them learn for themselves. Your method does not work for every child or set of parents.

CaptainNancy · 12/10/2011 14:59

What riv said. My DD doesn't have SEN, just as her DD1 doesn't. And as blackflamecandle (what is one of those please?) said- newborns can and do learn- I instigated bedtime routine from Day 1 with my children- she still can't sleep. It is a psychological issue I'm sure, not physiological, but I sure as hell cannot fix that by 'being tougher' on her.

I'm sorry, I probably sound incredibly defensive, but after 6 years of this (and having less than 5 hours straight myself every night for 6 years) I am weary of it, and I'm worried for her. I am now used to having no sleep, but she struggles with it, and it impacts on her quality of life.

TheBrideofFrankenstein · 12/10/2011 15:02

The bottom line is I don't care what other people do, so long as they don't want me to be sympathetic to their tales of mummy martyrdom.

i.e. if they're happy getting up 3 times a night to feed a 15 mth old, then they're not going to be telling me about it, so it's a non-point.

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