to be exhausted with my friend's Chronic Fatigue Syndrome?

[LemonDifficult]

My friend has been diagnosed with CFS. Over the past 6 months or so she's been struggling with tiredness. She's had blood tests which found nothing, she's looked into herbal medicine and so on. A couple of weeks ago the GP said it's CFS.

During the past few months she has become more and more self absorbed. She is single, she wants to meet someone and have a family and is feeling the pressure as she's in her late 30s. Along with this taking up much of our conversations, she talks constantly about her tiredness, or just other aspects of her life. Almost nothing about me, except on a couple of occasions some bitter digs about how parents are so rude/thoughtless/whatever. I'm sympathetic but beginning to get sick of it. I'm also sad about it because we have been great mates. I try, I really do, but my frustration with her is getting the better of me.

If she was to ask me I'd say I think it's depression or stress by another name with sleepy side-effects, but if I so much as hint at that I get the brush off. In my view, she needs a serious amount of counselling to deal with the trauma of losing both her parents when she was young and various other issues that have come up along the way. She has barely had a proper relationship - the last one was 12 years ago. That the CFS might be in anyway be a MH issue is a non-starter with her.

So AIBU? Is this CFS absolutely out of my friend's hands? And at what point am I allowed to say, 'I've done my duty as a mate and listened to how hard it is not being able to get up until noon. Now I'm fed up with your jellyfish comments about the evils of 'screaming babies' or whatever'?

Or perhaps their bodies have been under stress and they are feeling the physical effects of this? It is a well known fact that stress exacerbates physical illness as it causes all sorts of physiological changes in the body.

People can be ill and can also milk their illness to guilt trip and control loved ones. Sorry, but they can and do.

I have seen my adorable daughter do this with her asthma. Yes, she has a potentially life threatening chronic ailment, but she is learning to play the 'feeling wheezy' card whenever faced with doing something she doesn't want. And she is just a wee girl - many adults have taken this control tool to award winning levels.

Your friend is ill. She also sounds selfish and self absorbed. Not all ill people are selfish and self absorbed, being ill is not a personality trait.

Friendship needs to be a two way street, or you are no longer a friend, but a carer. Maybe she needs a carer, but there is no reason you should feel guilty because you don't want/are not able to take that role in her life.

I think you and your friendship group are doing this woman no favours by the "pussyfoot-pussyfoot-pussyfoot-right that's it I've had enough I'm out of here" approach. I understand how it happens, but it's not giving her a chance to change or get the help she needs to change. She may not feel you're worth it, but at least shed have the choice.

I understand where you are coming from. People who are depressed are often very self centered. And whether it is CFS or depression, a common reaction to any life changing illness is depression.

There is a lot of advice on the net about how to help a friend with depression. I think there are a few things you could do.

1. For your sake limit the amount of time that you spend listening to her. Decide how long you are happy to listen to her in a week/month and then do that.

1. At other times arrange to meet her to do things. For example, go and see a film together. Try and see things that are fun and gently uplifting.

1. It might be hard to get her to do this, but if you could get her to do some gentle exercise that will help. For example going a walk in a lovely park. Exercise has a proven affect on depression. But I know she might say her CFS means she can't do this. She might go for more gentle stuff like Tai Chi though (I do know when you are very good at it, using swords, etc, it is not gentle exercise, but for beginners it is.)

1. Suggest complementary therapies to her. Some people are much more open to these than going to their GP. So suggest she sees people like a nutrionist - eating well will help her whatever the cause of her fatigue. Also touching therapies like reflexology, massage and acupuncture can help with depression.

1. Suggest that St Johns Wort might help her fatigue. Don't mention depression though. St Johns Wort has proven to work on mild to moderate depression.

1. Suggest that a counsellor might help her deal with her CFS. Maybe get details of a local counsellor who has some experience of CFS. Or suggest to her that she ask a CFS support group/association for details of a counsellor they could recommend. At the very least, it will mean she has someone to talk to about how she is feeling.

1. You may need to limit the amount you see her. You could be partially honest and say you want to support her and you can see she is struggling but you are having a bit of a hard time at the moment. You can say you are happy to meet and do things, but you really aren't up to talking a lot about each others problems.

I know how irritating it is when a friend only talks about themselves and never asks about you. But with depression I think doing this is a self protective mechanism. She just won't be able to deal with hearing about your problems. So try and not take this personally.

And remember, you are allowed to look after yourself as well. Being a friend doesn't mean that you have to be available as support/listener whenever she wants this.

Right, I might be way off course here, but could be correct too.

I'm not going to get into the whole debate about whether CFS is a MI or a physical illness, nor am I going to hop up and down saying that the OP is a bad friend. FWIW, I don't think the OP is being a bad friend.

Anyway.

I actually think the friend might have CFS, which is sad and I'm sure she does get very down about it. However, that is no excuse for her moaning and slagging off kids and mothers, which OP is.

If OP sat with her friend whinging on about how annoying single people are (for example) then that would be bad. As it is, the OP is being subtly slagged off for being a mother yet can't say anything

I'd guess the friend is feeling down about her illness, but also about being single, childless etc.

OP, I don't think you're exhausted with your friend's CFS (as your title suggests) I think you're exhausted with the passive aggressive comments she makes. I feel for you.

I have CFS and have suffered from mental ill health all through my life.

This latest bout of CFS came on the back of a kidney infection which I was hospitalised for and has left me exhausted and with low immunity, so I catch everything going, and I have lots of niggling little things that might seem like nothing to someone usually healthy - mouth ulcers, a sore throat, thrush, lingering colds - and then unexplained aches in muscles, flare ups of arthritic pain, headaches, inability to think or concentrate (even to do nice fun things like read or watch a programme). I have to strategically plan my day so that I can get sleep in and not be too exhausted to do a school run. I keep a backup of money in case I need to taxi everywhere on a bad day.

On top of this, I have to deal with taking medication for my mental health problems, going to counselling and trying to be pro-active about healing emotionally... it's so bloody hard to keep a positive attitude when you feel like crap all the time, so it's very easy to slip into a depression.

I think perhaps you could be more understanding, but if you don't have the ability to fully empathise with your friend and feel bitter about the seeming one-sidedness, it may be better for you both to keep some space. Have you tried reading about spoons? Perhaps your friend could use some prodding to find a more positive attitude, having negative friends around who don't understand won't help with that though.

I am sure I get annoying at times (and try my best not to be), but I have accepted that some people can handle me with my health problems, and some people can't. I do my best to keep from moaning and be positive, and I surround myself with people who are supportive and understanding, because that helps. It's taken me years of illness and chronic pain to get to this point, someone newly diagnosed is going to struggle to come to terms with the reality of the change in ability.

I don't think yabu. I think you need to talk to your friend and explain that you understand how being so unwell all the time must be horrible, but that you would appreciate her showing a little more interest in you sometimes. Say that you are finding it very hard work being round her, and that maybe you should take a bit of a break for a few weeks because you feel you can't bee a good friend at the moment. Also, point out that maybe if she discussed something other than herself, she might find life a bit more interesting, it might take her out of herself for a bit.

I used to share a flat with a friend who had ME. It was hard work sometimes, and you have to step back at times and look after yourself. That isn't selfish.

The thing that's striking me here from the posters with first-hand experience of ME/CFS is that you all try to be positive and interested in other people.

The OP's friend isn't.

I know people with "Victim Complexes". They're the ones who have to be rescued from huge dramas at short notice. The ones who, when your Mum has to have a second mammogram, theirs has just been diagnosed with breast cancer - a constant game of one-up-manship.

Then give one of these "Victim"s a real illness. They'll be in heaven! No one can shut them up! They have a legitimate excuse to never have to listen to anyone else's boring moaning again!

I know people like that, they are emotional vampires. And, while the OP needs to support her friend, her friend needs to make an effort not to criticise her lifestyle.

If the friend was saying "I must sell my flat because an Evangelical Christian has moved in and I'll never sell it with all that singing going on" we'd all be ...

Aye, she's stuck in victim role right now... I was for a long time too to start with. Hopefully she'll realise she only feeds the illness if she's negative about it, that you have to find pleasure and joy in spite of it otherwise your existence is purely illness and no wonder you moan all the time.

Your poor lovely friend will be better off without you.

Is CFS diagnosed by a GP?

I was diagnosed by the Essex CFS/ME service, GP had to refer me after 6 months of symptoms

the friend's illness is not the main problem here. her parents died when she was young & her life has not worked out as she wants.

that is sad - but only she can make her life better. i think when you have been talking with her about her problems, you have been trying help, but all you have actually been doing is help her perpetuate the situation.

one of the other posters listed lots of constructive things you can do with her. i think you should say you want to help by helping her do things - not sitting & talk about sad topics.

if she does

(NB: CFS is just the name for a collection of symptoms when they dont know what wrong with you - there is no diagnosis for it.)

You are just venting because being around people who are depressed is tiring, I knew that when I was depressed and I know that from having close family members with long-term histories of CFS/depression (yes, I know it doesn't always co-occur, may not be a MH issue to start with but personally the people I know with it all have MH issues as well, to the point it is not clear whether their pains/aches/exhaustion come from the depression or vice versa, plus when their MH is better, their CFS is better, it's very cyclical and inter-related for them).

When I have friends who are depressed (with a wide friendship circle, this is quite often), I never mind supporting them and listening, however, I do mind being criticized myself. I think the key thing is that you feel got at here by your friend, who doesn't appear to be interested in you, your life, your children, indeed anything about you. She is self-absorbed and nasty about the things that matter to you (like being in a family).

So, it sounds to me like the friendship would be struggling anyway. I would keep some limited contact, but don't turn yourself into her crutch. It doesn't sound like you have the interest in seeing her through this darker side of her life as she wouldn't do it for you, this is fair enough although I wouldn't cut off, just minimise contact (she might learn to behave better to you to renew the friendship or not).

I had CFS/ME for 2.5 years. It is a truly awful illness but it does not mean that you have to be self absorbed and care about no-one else. I also suffer from chronic depression for which I need treatment indefinitely. There is no known reason for the causes of CFS and therefore people who suffer from it tend to be disbelieved. Nevertheless, whilst I am of the opinion that there is a strong physical cause I do think that a poor state of mind will make the illness worse.

YANBU

Lots of our mutual friends just say 'the thing is, Lemon, once you've discussed X's issues for an hour with her, there's not much more to say' or similar They're bored of it. I'm less bored, more pissed off

Imagine how bored and pissed off your friend is!

I have suffered from tiredness on and off for years and after a couple of years the doc wrote cfs. It's not a specific diagnosis, just what they say if they can't find anything else.
It is real, but I imagine you are fed up, not with her illness, but her way of coping with it.
BTW, I can't speak for others but I was annoyed when people said it was depression because, it was unlike depression, in that I wasn't at all depressed, just needed to sleep.
Robin
ps people should be less swift to condemn.

YANBU - you can be ill and selfish and ill and unselfish
Its her choice
if she has no interest in you and how you are but is utterly self absorbed at some stage you need to let her know how hurtfull this is and step away of she doesnt change.

Oblomov, etc. - am quite surprised that you think that I am already being a bad friend. I listen for hours, help out where I can, stick up for her when she'd not around and have seen her through lots of troubles. We've been friends for ages, she's my son's godmother and when I spoke to her yesterday it was to invite her for Christmas. So to all all the 'glad you're not my friend' type comments - what in the hell else would you want from a friendship that I'm not doing?

And as for GandT's Your poor lovely friend will be better off without you - eh?! She's being downright spiteful at the moment, nothing 'lovely' about it or I wouldn't be on here.

My AIBU was about whether or not I could expect her to do something about either the CFS or the negativity, and whether it would be reasonable for me to back off.

I am truly baffled by whoever said this was the nastiest thread they'd read on Mumsnet.

Being a carer (which you have become, whether you know it or not), a constant source of support is absolutely fucking knackering. Carers are not just about bum wiping, and feeding, it is the emotional needs of an ill person that can be the hardest to meet. Anyone having a go at you for not being a good friend lives in some kind of fairyland where invalids are grateful, appreciative and undemanding.

The best thing you can do it 1) give yourself some space to recuperate so you can stay a good friend 2) read her the riot act about connecting with support groups, counselling, etc.

That was me.

If you had come on here and said you find it draining supporting your friend I think you would have had a lot more sympathy. The title of your thread is tasteless and sounds like a sick joke.
Questioning the nature of her illness - unless you are some kind of specialist in the area is really not on. No matter how supportive you think you are being the impression you are giving is that your 'friend' should just pull herself together. Your 'friend' WILL have picked up on this and likely feels as though she needs to justify herself to you.
I haven't suffered from CFS but I have suffered from mental illness. I don't think that people wanting their illness to be believed for what it is is doing any disservice to mental illness. If one of my friends thought they knew better than me/my gp about my illness I would have found it highly patronising tbh.
As to whether you walk away it's entirely up to you. Like a pp has said most people lose friends when they suffer from a chronic illness and aren't so fun anymore.

Also I think to describe the OP as a carer pushing it a bit. How many hours a week do you spend with your friend OP? And what do you do for her aside from getting pissed off listening to her drone on about her boring illness?

SHPP - your name sounds a little tasteless but I assume you thought we'd all get over it, read the same for my thread title. I'm not looking for sympathy. This is AIBU, afterall, and I can take whatever's posted. But I think either you're stretching credulity to think this thread is anywhere near the 'nastiest' on MN, or you arrived very, very recently and have hung out mainly on the Food topic.

Having a chronic illness changes your personality. It can make you self-absorbed, depressed and negative. I feel so sorry for your friend.

I was ill for a couple of years with an unspecified problem, which resulted in me losing 2 stone in the space of 8 weeks, and having dragging tiredness, jaundice, nausea, stomach upsets and powerful feelings of malaise for two years. It was a desperate time and occasionally I was tempted to chuck myself under a bus at the thought of the day stretching out ahead of me. I would have felt a million times worse in knowing my friends found me a burden - not because I was expecting them to give me loads of practical help with my life, but because they didn't even like hearing about how I was feeling.

"Spend more time with people that make you feel better, less time with the ones that make you feel worse. Life is too short."

What - life is too short to justify putting yourself out for someone who can't do anything for you?

What do I do? Have her to stay, introduce her to men I think she would like, tip her off about stories she'd be interested in, remember her bday with presents, invite her on holiday/to Christmas... dunno, be there for her really.