AIBU to think that children should be reading when they start school?

[horribledinners]

Maybe I'm just old-fashioned, I started having kids 20+ years ago, but I, and all my brothers and sisters were taught to read and write by my parents before we started primary school. I taught my two older kids to read and begin to learn to write letters in time for them starting primary education, and would be ashamed if ds3 couldn't recognise letters and be able to read by the time he starts school.

I completely understand that there have been many confusing 'experiments' in education since then, the abandonment of phonics was a tragedy in my opinion; but do parents really think its the schools job to teach kids to read and write and do they not even give an introduction to reading and writing anymore?

I would love to know if this is a generational thing. I know for certain its not a class thing as we were very poor growing up and my Mum would take us out to the bus-stop and make us read out the notices!

YABU.

Just in case you didn't realise.... (infant teacher here btw)

My DS2 just started school last month, age 4. He can't read, he can write his name. At this point I'd be bloody thrilled if he would manage to stay dry for the entire day.

SpanishPaella

depends if the parent can be bothered to sit down and read to the child or not

my kids could all read fluently before they went to nursery because we used to read a lot at home

I think it's quite hard to prevent a child from learning TBH. Preventing them from learning isn't the same as not actively teaching them.

I'd disagree with that TBH. Not enabling them to do something they're interested in is preventing them from learning, whether that is not providing colouring pencils and paper for a child who wants to draw or not telling a child who wants to know what the funny in a book mean.

I used a lot of letter land stuff when my son was aged 3 to 4 and started even a bit earlier for my next son. They went to school able to read small words and able to count. I just wanted to help them at home as they have very late summer birthdays.

The teachers at my children's school also asked us not to teach our children to read or write. They are the experts and are able to teach children the way to develop their skills. They pointed out that a lot of parents teach their children ABC, or seperated letters which then had to be unlearned. Instead we were asked to have books available, help them to expand their vocabulary, give them crayons etc.
Personally I was satisfied with the way they were taught to read and write.
ohdearnigel adult illiteracy is nothing new. It was a major concern in the 70's.

funny squiggles (i.e. letters and words) in a bok mean

GRRR book!

Blimey leeloo1, not cross, not scary. And you can think I am a twat about this even if mostly you think I am ok. I am a twat fairly regularly.

Trouble with the idea that parents can teach an interested child, as long as it is not in a pushy way is how do the school convey that?

If a school says "if your child is interested" many parents will silently think " fuck, he should be interested by now, other kids will get ahead, we will start tomorrow!"
And if they say "some of you may teach in a way incompatible with our methods" some will think " my mum taught me so they don't mean i might do it wrong. They mean the thickos"
And then if they say " we want children to develop a natural love of books which does not tend to grow if they are taught too early and lose confidence" some parents will think " I will tell her not to say we have been learning"

The issue is not (for me) about technique. It is about nurturing a love of wonderful stories in a lovely atmosphere of warmth and laughter rather than pushing to make sure a child is on level 2 of blahblah before the other reception kids.

I have no doubt a child can be taught easily and with fun and warmth. But sometimes trying to teach a reluctant child can put them off.
And all of us think we can teach well and without pressure. But those who can't will cause problems

I could read and write when i started school aged 4. I dont agree with teachers and schools insisting that the parents do not teach their children to read at home. I would think it much better for a child to learn on a one to one basis with no distractions, rather than amongst a class of 30, and I do wonder if modern teaching has anything to do with the reason so many children have little interest in books, can barely write a sentence without spelling mistakes, and have such terrible handwriting.

Reading should be encouraged as a hobby, an interest, and something that is a lifetime skill for pleasure. Not a chore that you go to school to learn.

Children also do not need computers until they have mastered the basic skills of reading and putting a pen to paper.

YABVU

It actually is a primary school teacher's job to teach children how to read and write!
If they pick it up before, fine but that is usually the exeption rather than the norm and has nothing to do with parents not wanting to invest the time in their children.

And I also think that it's very important that parents encourage reading and a love for books at home and practice reading skills one-on-one. But the actual teaching, as the word says, is the teachers job.

YABU.
The vast majority of children will learn to read quite easily if it is left a tad later. A parent's job is to imbue a love of reading, I think, which is somegting else entirely.

Only an anecdote, but my late summer born DC, went to school literally just four. They couldn't do anything. Some of their peers could read and write and all manner of things. Their parents were not entirely magnanimous about it. They assumed they had little genii on their hands.

They didn't and my DC caught up.

YABVVU - my son started school the week after he turned 4!!! I was busy enjoying and having fun with him before he went to school, not whipping him into shape reading wise!

YABVVVVU
I have 5DC, 1 is only 2 but does know the alphabet mainly but i would not call it reading!
2 of my older ones were late readers but they had SN. Nothing to do with my parenting.

It's no disparagement of teachers to say that an unqualified parent is able to teach their child to read if the child wants to. A parent has a number of advantages over a teacher: they can teach 1-on-1, they can pick the time during the day that suits when their child will be most interested and they have no pressure at all to produce results. I think one of the sad things about this thread is that is shows how learning to read seems to be imbued with an air of mysiticism in the way that other skills just aren't. No one questions a parent's ability to teach a child to talk, despite that being probably the most complex, difficult task a child will ever accomplish. Teaching a child who wants to learn to read really isn't that difficult. Ten minutes a day playing phonetic letter games isn't hothousing and is actually really fun.

Phew! :) (Although I wouldn't dare to presume any such thing! )

I agree its very hard for schools to give advice in a universal way. I'm surprised that many schools have interaction with parents prior to their child starting - although obv private schools are a bit different. Which is why it concerns me that these things are told to parents/children after the event - even if they aren't told 'you shouldn't have taught x to do y' the parent who has been told 'well done for not teaching...' may feed this back in the playground and its just wrong, wrong, wrong! Learning (when not forced) is always a good thing. [climbs down off soapbox!]

The thing that concerns me - as an ex-Reception/Yr 1 teacher, so clearly one of "the experts [who] are able to teach children the way to develop their skills." (sorry for quoting you fatlazymummy!) is that whilst I've worked alongside outstanding teachers who were experts who could do this standing on their heads, I've also worked with some pretty poor teachers who weren't anyway near able to do this, in addition to teachers who took lots of sick leave and their reception classed were taken by a succession of supply teachers, teachers who did job shares and each used different methods so children ended up confused and not making the progress they should etc. Oh and teachers who hadn't been properly trained in the 'new-fangled' methods so ended up confused and teaching a mish-mash of things.

Now I sound like I'm bashing teachers, which I'm not, its a very, very hard job, but it means I wouldn't rely on a teacher 100% as an expert - because they're all human!

In an ideal world children would have 2-3 years in school to perfect reading in reception style classes before moving on to more formal learning, but in practise this doesn't happen and (for example) the free-spirited, gorgeous little boys who love running round outside with balls and making dens (as its good practise in reception to be free-flow indoor/outdoor) more than sitting at a table reading and whose parents don't push them to do so at home, find they are 'behind' when they get to Year 1 and are now expected to sit down and 'read the questions and answer them' to some extent - they then fall behind and get disillusioned.

How have the children you had 20 plus years ago get on in their exams at secondary school and university?

did reading before school give them an advantage

My children do extremely well - no grade lower than an A so far - and didn't read until they were around 7 or 8

Yabvu god help you if like me you have a child with sn who are not able to do that despite my best efforts, besides that a children are different and develop at different rates, and some are not ready yet to learn them.that's what school is for. I learnt to read and write at school at 6-7. I had undiagnosed dev delay, so I did not have the cognitive skills at 3-4 to learn to read and write. Didn't stop me as I have a BA (hons) 2:1 and and Msc (merit) grade. So yes you a being very unreasonable.
El

I learnt to read by the time I was 3. MrNC didn't learn to read until he was 12.
We both have PhDs now.

I don't think learning to read so early really helped me much (and at one point the other kids refused to play with me because they were scared of my 'magic powers' of telling them what was for lunch at nursery), whereas learning to tie shoelaces and ties and throw and catch a ball would have been way more useful - I'm still grateful to the science/PE teacher who told my parents that my science was just fine, now about physical coordination...

I think children should know what a book is, what way up they go, that they have stories in, and have an idea of some letters and sounds, but in many cases I don't think they're ready to read until 7 or so.
Ds is 3 and loves sitting and 'reading' books to himself, so I'm sure he'll twig eventually. In the meantime I'm focusing on him learning to get dressed!

Fair enough leeloo.
I would be surprised if only private schools meet parents before 1st day of term. My friends all have pre start meeting to discuss first year, equipment etc. Does it not always happen?

I don't know of anyone where a parent was told about what they taught ir nit after the fact. Once we started it wasn't raised again.

YABVU. The UK already teaches children to read far earlier than the rest of the world, most countries start school at 6. Of course parents should play a part in their child's education, but they shouldn't pre-empt it.

Why would anyone use the word "ashamed" in association with any delay in their child's educational progress anyway? You should be ashamed of that!

Spanish Paella - I have read to DS2 every night for years and still do. But, in my opinion he was too little to be starting school, and I certainly wasn't going to spend the summer holidays when he was 3 teaching him to read and write! My post was to point out that he was still little and learning just how to cope with school.
He can read now, at just 6, and it's been no hassle at all for him to learn

And a say this as the mother of a 6yo and a 3yo who are both obsessed with books, but the 6yo couldn't read before she started school (at age 4 and 2 weeks). She's reading very well now, though, thanks to a team effort between her teachers and parents.

"and at one point the other kids refused to play with me because they were scared of my 'magic powers' of telling them what was for lunch at nursery"

Brilliant! You scary witch,you. Did they cross their fingers and throw salt at you.