AIBU to think that children should be reading when they start school?

[horribledinners]

Maybe I'm just old-fashioned, I started having kids 20+ years ago, but I, and all my brothers and sisters were taught to read and write by my parents before we started primary school. I taught my two older kids to read and begin to learn to write letters in time for them starting primary education, and would be ashamed if ds3 couldn't recognise letters and be able to read by the time he starts school.

I completely understand that there have been many confusing 'experiments' in education since then, the abandonment of phonics was a tragedy in my opinion; but do parents really think its the schools job to teach kids to read and write and do they not even give an introduction to reading and writing anymore?

I would love to know if this is a generational thing. I know for certain its not a class thing as we were very poor growing up and my Mum would take us out to the bus-stop and make us read out the notices!

I should also say, when teaching I had children in my class who literally didn't know which way up to hold a book, how to turn pages, that text went from left to right, that had no idea of rhymes or what their names looked like. Perhaps their parents should have been ashamed. Have to say that it just made me hugely sad as books are so enjoyable that they were missing out on doing something lovely with their children. :(

If my DS being able to read (hopefully he will be by the time he starts school as he'll be one of the oldest in year) means that a teacher has more time to spend helping a child in that situation then I'd be very happy!

Ormirian, where in my post did I say that I would force DD to read before she starts school ? Please feel free to quote..

Leeloo

I am not sure I understand a couple of things.

The head and teachers at my dds school do request that children are not taught to read pre-prep. So I assume that your skepticism is about whether that is a good idea rather than the fact that it happens?

And a teacher being irritated at having to undo/alter teaching done at home is not going to convey that irritation to a child. You seem to be suggesting that they would. Their (silent) irritation would be with the parents, surely?

spanish.....smug and very judgemental...you need to stop and think about what you are saying.

DD was read to everyday, and has a genuine love of books - she could write her name by the time she started school, but reading - I left that to the experts who know how to teach it. DD had just turned 4 by the time she started school, and was the youngest in the school - I did not want to pressure her, and I haven't got anything to prove. She is well supported in her schoolwork, and is reading brilliantly now.

Definitely. The sandpit and waterplay are all very well, but hardly a substitute for the three Rs. I am a firm believer in children knowing all their times tables, being able to read and write and tie their own shoelaces. The teacher has hardly got time to take care of such basic requirements.

Not being able to read pre-school does not mean a child has not been read to or enjoyed books.

My son could not read pre school. He had a reading age of 14 by age 8, got A at English a level (amongst his 8 other A and A grades) and is now studying English at Exeter.

Early reading is not some silver bullet for academic ability.

Is this where all the ORT and reading scheme bizarre stuff starts?

YABU if you think that every child should be able to read and write by the time they start school but YANBU to think it's no bad thing if they can. I would be furious with a teacher who let a DC of mine get bored or told them off for acquiring any skill and I would expect them to set work appropriate to their level. That is what a good teacher does.

DS is only 19mo but if he shows an interest in reading, I will teach him to read. We read books every day anyway. Ditto writing. He loves drawing and I will make sure that he holds his pen or pencil correctly before he goes to school, because so many boys have real issues with that. Maths: he knows the basic shapes and can sort bricks into piles of the same colour. He loves playing games with pouring water from one container into another. He can sort objects into big and small. Science: I do gardening and cooking with him. Next spring he will have his own small trough in the garden and I'll help him to grow flowers, showing him how to plant and water them.

It is impossible to stop a child learning unless you lock them in a box. Normal play will teach them something about reading, writing, maths, science, the arts, geography... and there is nothing wrong with supporting that at level they are comfortably with. If that level includes being able to read and write before school, then fine.

Why cant 3 & 4 year olds just enjoy playing etc - they've got their whole school lives to learn to read. No harm in talking about letters & sounds but I think it is unsual to find a 3 yr old child who learns to read without hothousing from a parent.

My DC1 learned to read at school in the UK and is now an avid reader.

We've since moved to Germany and dc2 has started school a few weeks ago at nearly 7 yrs old and he is unable to fluently read. And all of his classmates are the same. So should all the parents in Germany be thoroughly ashamed? Or perhaps proud that their dc were allowed to be dc for a bit longer before the rest of their life long learning starts?

Sorry nigel. I misread your post. I thought you said people should be ashamed of not teaching their children to read Which would rather imply that all children should be taught to read regardless of their interest and enthusiasm..

Meh.

Ds couldn't read or write when he started reception last month. Three weeks later his artwork is returning home with "D-S" carefully written out on each piece in a wobbly hand.

Dd couldn't read when she started reception. She was on chapter books by the summer term.

The trick is less about what you cram into them, and more about what they learn themselves, for themselves, on an ongoing basis into adulthood.

With the current literacy rates in this country I'm afraid I don't have a lot of faith in primary school teachers ability to deliver this skill.
My nephew left primary school unable to read. Much time was spent trying to get him to read. He was disruptive and ended up in a special school for troublesome boys. My cousin (a SN teaching assistant) spent a couple of days with him when he was 15. After about 5 minutes she realised he couldn't physically read the words on the page - turns out he is very farsighted and can't see the words on a page; once fitted with glasses he made huge progress. His mother thought teaching him to read was the school's job - and boy, did they let him down.
Maybe if my cousin had ignored the teacher's instructions to "leave reading to us" J might have been reading fine with the rest of his class

YABU!

"I am a firm believer in children knowing all their times tables, "

?? Before they start school! Blimey hully, that's going some

My DD is 3.5, loves books and enjoys going through her letters. We read together everyday. However I am not intending to teach her to read as I think the teacher is the specialist in this area. In the same way if she was ill I would treat basic things like a cold at home but go to a doctor for anything more specialist. If she teaches herself just from reading together fine but I'm not going to actively teach her. The teacher is the expert in this area my job is to get her to love books not teach the mechanics of reading.

Spare the rod, Orm, spare the rod.

Ds1 was a very good cook from an early age. Given how often he has been the one cooking so far at uni I think some parents could work on that a bit.
He makes fantastic chocolates.

:D Orm - I'm a firm believer in letting children go at their own pace - and if that includes teaching DD to read before school I will do so, whether that upsets her primary teacher or not ;D

Hmm, the point of my post got lost somewhere along the wya I think but basically, I think it is wrong to actively hold a child back when they want to learn, no matter their age.

I think it's quite hard to prevent a child from learning TBH. Preventing them from learning isn't the same as not actively teaching them.

Ohdearnigel

I would place a parent who had taken no action about their Childs inability to read at say, 6 or 7, let alone 15 in a completely different category to one who sends their child to school assuming that they will be taught.

I am not sure how anyone could attempt to link parents who have failed to find out their child is farsighted by 15 and parents who are not teaching their 3 or 4 year old to read.

I think the OP is being extremely judgemental as well as unreasonable. As it happens, I could read when I went to school at 2 months past my 4th birthday but this was entirely due to being looked after, in the day, by my grandmother who was a recently retired primary school head teacher. She noted my enthusiasm for books and, without any pressure, started me off with the rudiments of reading.

My own sons could not read when they started school. I had read to them since babyhood and they loved books. But I was actually far keener on them developing the social skills that would facilitate their learning when they actually got to school. DS1's reception class teacher (a friend) confided in me that she'd far prefer a class of children capable of dressing themselves,sharing things and being able to sit down and concentrate when required if the alternative was 30 precociously early readers who had no social skills whatsoever.

My children left school with good GCSEs and A Levels before going on to university. They have good jobs. Neither appear to have suffered from my casually indifferent parenting that left them unable to read Levi-Strauss in the original French before leaving toddler group.

Both mine can drive a car, but that doesn't mean they are Jensen Buttop.

I am left wondering why teacher training colleges spend so much time teaching teachers to teach reading if it something we should all be able to do before going to school...

Pagwatch

Eeek, don't be p'd off with me, I usually like reading your posts. :( I feel like I'm in trouble now!

"The head and teachers at my dds school do request that children are not taught to read pre-prep. So I assume that your skepticism is about whether that is a good idea rather than the fact that it happens?"

Yes, sorry I wasn't doubting it happened, just thought it sad that parents are disempowered from teaching their own children things. And yes I do think a good teacher can take children at different levels and help them all to progress at their own rate. I went to a pre-prep for the 1st few years of school and I was sent to a higher class for quiet reading whilst my class learned to read (I assume) which apparently I was very proud of - especially as they had better books.

"And a teacher being irritated at having to undo/alter teaching done at home is not going to convey that irritation to a child. You seem to be suggesting that they would. Their (silent) irritation would be with the parents, surely?"

It was again replying to people saying that the teachers had congratulated parents on not teaching their child to write their name etc. What did they say to the other parents who had taught their children to do this? A lot of this is fed back to or sensed by the child.

I just find it hard to believe teachers (or anyone) don't like children to be taught things? i.e. if a child knows letter names starting school then fab they're half way there and now just have to learn phonics. With your dd's pre-prep, is the advice due to a fear that 'pushy' (sorry!) parents will be forcing children who aren't ready to read to try to give them a headstart?

Can I please reiterate that I do not believe in forcing children to read (or do anything) before they're ready. Conversely I think its wrong to artificially hold back a child who is ready to learn a new skill. I was writing numbers the other day (shopping list). DS took the pen from me and said 'my turn now' - should I have whipped the pen away from him and said 'sorry DS not for another 2 years until you start school'?

Of course it is wrong to hold a child back, or course you should not stop an interested child -I said that way up .

That is not the same as setting out to teach a child regardless of their inclination. Well not in my book