problems with childcare

[Melinwelin]

Hi Ladies
I would like to gage your reactions and comments please.

My daughter went to a local nursery from 9months old and I recently made the decision to move her to a childminder as she seemed to be constantly picking every bug up, other than that I was happy with her care.

I found a local childminder and she has a daughter the same age as my daughter (17months) and was also looking after another little girl 11months. During the second week I noticed my daughter had a really nasty bite on her shoulder (teeth marks and bruising) so I phoned the childminder who was apologetic and confessed that her daughter was going through a phase and she would keep an eye on the situation. I gave the benefit of the doubt but was not happy that it was not mentioned before. My daughter would have been really distressed and it played on my mind the whole of the weekend. During the 3rd week I collected her on the Wednesday to be told that a biting incident had happened again but the childminder had intervened, when I got home her little arm was so bruised that as far as I was concerned no intervention took place or if it had it was too late. I decided not to return my child to her care and managed to get her back into nursery on the Friday.

She had been paid upto the end of that week. She is now taking me to a small claims court for 4weeks notice (£620) but my argument is that she was in breech of her contract as she was unable to protect my child in her care and why should I be penalised and have to pay for two child care providers when this is of no fault of myself or my daughter..

Ok ladies whats your thoughts........ Do I fight this? Do I stand a chance? I am really upset by the whole thing and just wanted what was best for by baby....xx
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OP (wherever you are) did the childminder warn you that her child was going through a biting stage before your daughter started there or before she was bitten?

She must have known about the biting before then, because she called it a stage so it can't have been the first time her child had bitten someone.

I hope she wins. It's a ridiculous idea to think she could guarantee an accident or an incident would never happen. To guarantee a child doesn't bite you would have to have your hands within inches of the child's mouth every time they went near another child. You are being totally unreasonable. I don't think you'll win because you are being totally unreasonable.

Good luck at nursery. I'm sure they can guarantee nobody will ever bite, scratch or hit your child. [rollseyes]

You do realise that, given there will be more children in the nursery, your DD is statistically more likely to come up against a biter there.It is horrible when your child is bitten but it happens so fast that it is nigh on impossible to prevent.There is no way the court will regard this as a failure by your cm to fulfill her contractual obligations.She should have told you the first time, but at the end of the day it will be your word against hers that she didn't.
I would pay up now before the case gets any further and more legal costs eg hearing fee are added to what you might have to cough up.

OP where are you?

Bites definitely happen quickly, I remember playing with my niece in a ball pit when she was a toddler, she was so happy and smiley and then just lunged in for the kill and bit my nose. My own DD is 16 months and bites me and DH occasionally, I think when she is teething. It comes from nowhere, and is generally when she is cuddling us.

I also think you are being unreasonable, but it doesn't look like you're coming back anyway.

I think you are at very high risk of losing this case and having to pay the outstanding amount plus costs, and possibly interest as well. You could easily finish up with a bill for well over a grand.

I think you over reacted. There is a biter at DS's nursery and they are very vigilant and good at intervening, but DS has still been bitten several times simply because he likes playing with the child in question. They nealy always pick up on it but one of DS's little friends was bitten through his clothes without anyone noticing, and DS once said he was bitten on an occasion when we weren't told about it.

Realistically, if a child decides to bite another child, the carer would have to have lightning reflexes to stop it happening. You can't assume the CM just let it happen just because there is a bruise.

I think you need to pay the notice period.

You do realise that sooner or later your kid will in all likelihood bite someone elses, yeah? I think you're being unreasonable. If your child bit hers, and she told you that you had to leave immediately with no notice period, you would be a little miffed, yes?

It might be hard to believe, but it's true. My children have never bitten another child, and have never been bitten. It may be luck - I don't know - but there you go.

It's unfortunate the OP didn't come back, but it may be that she thought she was being criticised for being too pfb. Well it is AIBU. Or she may be over on legal, it's not a board I look at really.

Anyway, the CM that have answered probably know better than anyone the legal aspects of giving notice/withdrawing a child/contracts and I hope the OP manages to get it sorted out one way or another.

Thanks everyone this has had such different responses..
Ok to answer a few questions...

I have 3 daughters 2 of which are 16years and 13years. So I'm not a first time mum who overreacts just one that gives a shit....

My youngest has been in nursery since she was 9months old and there was one biting incident that was dealt with professionally and I was fine about it, as indeed these things do happen, I signed an incident form the same day and it never happened again. I am not an ogre I appreciate these things happen. Yes I agree with the comment that I shouldn't have removed her but didn't fancy another winter with her constantly poorly.

My point was that it happened twice within a week, no incident forms were completed, and she didnt even know the first one had happened. The mark on her shoulder was so sore I know my dd would have been incredibly distressed. She was noticebly distressed after the 2nd time, I'm sorry to the ladies that feel I'm overreacting but do you know what its not acceptable, even if she were at school etc I have always raised my girls not to put their hands on another child and its wrong if someone else does that to you..This case is slighly different because we are talking about another baby that doesn't understand. But her mother does!!!! If my dd were a biter I would not be putting her in situations where she could harm another and I would have eyes in my arse. If she had been upfront about it at the time of enroling her I would have chosen a different cm. because its her child so she cant remove/exclude her.

I was not prepared for a 3rd incident where she could have been bitten on her face etc and it has already made her wary around other children now which is a real shame. I'm not really arguing about the biting its the principle.

1. Why should I have to pay twice when we have done nothing wrong.
2. CM wasn't upfront about her daughters phase when I enroled dd.
3. No incident forms were completed.
4. she talks of her protection with regards to the contract but where was ours?

I understand you're upset, but you are probably still legally obliged to pay the contracted notice. Your feelings about the biting don't really alter that.

Interesting thread!

1. You pay twice, because those are the terms of the contract you entered in to.
2. The "phase" may not have started then - as an experienced mother you already know they are sudden and short-lived.
3. Yes, they should. But as noted above, this is unlikely to lead to any sort of safeguarding "fail", especially as you say in OP you accepted the explanation and assurances after the first time.
4. If you believe she has broken the contract, then your remedy and protection is through the courts. Not having seen the contract, it is impossible to say if it is unfair to the point of being unenforceable (though I think this is unlikely if NCMA verbiage was used). Other posters have already pointed out higher up the thread why you do not have a persuasive case in terms of these incidents.

I am another who thinks you should face your obligations and pay up.

I know now from talking to other mums that this little one has a history of biting, I have absolutely no problem with that, but I would not have entered into the contract with her mother if I had known.

CM not upfront in the first place, didn't notice the first incident, and a second was within 4 days of the first.

She had been with the cm less than 3weeks...

I actually feel sorry fr all the good childminders out there, they get a lot of crap from parents. How can you watch a child constantly, what are you suggesting she does? You must realise there are times when the cm goes to the tolled, or prepares meals or changes nappies.

Oh Bootcamp I have friends that are CM but that don't live in my area. I totally agree with you and I would have chosen a different one had I have known her daughter was biting, I would have not have put my dd in the situation. I havent got a problem with the child or the minder but feel that under the circumstances she should have been honest from the start, completed the incident forms and been just a bit more human about it all. When I phoned her to explain why I wouldnt be returning my daughter all she seemed concerned with was the money. and her protection. I just think maybe she should be watching older children for a while that can understand rather than little ones that cant talk. I am amazed most people think im overreacting. I am a reasonable person and have tried to see it from the cm side of things and i know i wouldnt be expecting the parent to pay for 4 further weeks. She has been paid for the time she provided care, and under different circumstances I would be paying the notice period, but I am unable to leave my daughter there as im not prepared for a 3rd incident to happen and it would have happened again as the 2nd happened so quickly after the 1st.

Well I don't think you are bu at all. I don't think you are annoyed with the actual biting but more the lack of response to it/how it was dealt with. That has undermined your trust in the cm.
My 2 year old was bitten once at nursery - I recieved a telephone 'courtesy call' to inform me of the incident and then an incident form that recorded how it was dealt with (cuddles!) etc. I wasn't bothered in the least by the biting because I felt reassured that the nursery were doing everything they could to rovide a safe environment for my child and communicate with me as a parent.
I would have had a completely different reaction had I just found the mark on his arm - twice in a week. I would definitely feel like I couldn't trust the cm. I don't think you have overreacted at all.

Have you explained to the cm that you feel that you can't trust her bacause of how she failed to communicate to you?

Sorry just read your last post. I think she is being unreasonable expecting you to pay given that you have explained why you are so unhappy with the level of care and communication received.
Good luck.

what will you do if/when she gets bitten at nursery?

she didnt even know the first one had happened.

Sometimes you don't know... if the child hasn't kicked up a fuss at the time, then how would someone know. The biter can bite very quickly and will do it in such a way that they are not seen, as they know that if they are seen they will be in trouble.

The mark on her shoulder was so sore I know my dd would have been incredibly distressed.

Was she distressed when you picked her up that day? It may certainly look sore some time after the incident but your DD may not have reacted that much at the time, thus not alerting her childminder.

If my dd were a biter I would not be putting her in situations where she could harm another and I would have eyes in my arse.

So if your DD starts to bite other children you will leave work immediately to care for your DD at home and not take her out anywhere? Is that what you are saying... honestly, if your DD did bite - and many children do go through a phrase of biting - then would you be leaving work and caring for her yourself for however long that phase lasted?

Yes an incident form should have been completed and yes a childcarer can try to be more vigilant of a child who is a known biter. The biter though is likely to take some trouble over when they do the biting, so they are not caught in the act.

I'd like to know the outcome if this goes to court under the Small Claims procedure. Would be interesting to here about how a court decides if the contract is breached or not, in this sort of case.

I think its very hard to keep children from biting, in fact almost impossible sometimes, she did apologise and must have been embarrassed the fact her child bit yours (I know I would be).

She is trying to look after little ones, no easy task at all especially when they decide to use their teeth. I think its an over reaction to move her back and you should have given her more notice, I have at least 2 weeks notice which means you pay whether you take the child or not.

Do you think it won't happen in a nursery? There are far more children there and usually 2 or 3 staff who cannot watch everyone at once (I worked in a nursery and they didn't watch half the time). The staff in some nurseries are usually young 18-25 year old girls too who have no children of their own, straight from college whereas a childminder is a Mum who has chosen to stay with her own child/ren and earn money looking after other children. We are inspected by OFSTED, have to attend courses on first aid and safeguarding and are expected to do NVQ Level 3 for no extra pay.

I am not saying this just because I'm a childminder, there are plenty of excellent nurseries out there with brilliant staff, am just saying biting goes on in either settings.

She WAS bitten at nursery....

Once in nearly a year, it was documented and actions were put in place to try and prevent it from happening again, which it didn't..

This was two bites in as many weeks!!!!!! I didn't feel anything had changed to prevent it from happening again.

Listen if your happy for your child to be on the receiving end then good for you... But I'm not and will not be penalised for it..

OP I hope things are a little more clear for you regarding the payments.

I still think you did the right thing.

Even if she was unaware that her child had bitten yours, you rang her immediately and she said that her daughter was going through a phase. She would not call it a phase if this was the first time her daughter had bitten someone. So she knew before your daughter was bitten that her child might bite her at some point and she did not tell you that.

It's one thing that she might have been unaware of the bite after it happened and so be unable to tell you about it.

It's another to know before the bite happened that her child was going through a biting phase and choose to not warn you that your child might be at risk because of it.

And since she knew her child is going through this stage, she should have been super-aware of what was going on until she could be certain the stage had passed. I accept that you can't watch them all the time, or even stop something that is happening right beside you, but you should at least know it had happened.

LO was attacked by another child at playgroup once. He was about 16 months old and the other boy was a month or two older. He launched himself at my son, pulling his hair and hitting him before he scratched his face and they both fell over, bumping heads on the way down.

I understand that at that age it can happen, but DS was very upset and shaken by it and he was wary of other children for weeks afterwards and would get upset if they came too close to him.

As you say, it could be her face next time, and it's not a risk I would be happy about taking either.

Not sure how you stand legally but it may help you to quote that Article 19 of the UNCRC ( Convention on the rights of the child) states that people looking after a child ( also in loco parentis) have a responsibility to protect that child from all forms of violence :) :)

I wouldn't have left my child there either. I think the fact that it happened previously and she failed to tell you or complete appropriate incident forms weakens her case significantly.

Not read whole thread yet, but if this happened during the first 3 weeks, does it not fall within your trial period, whereby either side can terminate the contract without being liable for fees. Check if you have this in your contract.

Meant to add that I wouldn't pay her either. She held back information which would have affected your decision to place your child in her care and as far as I'm concerned failure to fill out incident reports is a failure to do her job properly. She is legally obliged to fill out those reports and you are supposed to sign them too, to show that you have been kept informed of events and trust what she has told you regarding the incident.

If she didn't keep accurate records and get you to cosign them, then that is breach of contract.