problems with childcare

[Melinwelin]

Hi Ladies
I would like to gage your reactions and comments please.

My daughter went to a local nursery from 9months old and I recently made the decision to move her to a childminder as she seemed to be constantly picking every bug up, other than that I was happy with her care.

I found a local childminder and she has a daughter the same age as my daughter (17months) and was also looking after another little girl 11months. During the second week I noticed my daughter had a really nasty bite on her shoulder (teeth marks and bruising) so I phoned the childminder who was apologetic and confessed that her daughter was going through a phase and she would keep an eye on the situation. I gave the benefit of the doubt but was not happy that it was not mentioned before. My daughter would have been really distressed and it played on my mind the whole of the weekend. During the 3rd week I collected her on the Wednesday to be told that a biting incident had happened again but the childminder had intervened, when I got home her little arm was so bruised that as far as I was concerned no intervention took place or if it had it was too late. I decided not to return my child to her care and managed to get her back into nursery on the Friday.

She had been paid upto the end of that week. She is now taking me to a small claims court for 4weeks notice (£620) but my argument is that she was in breech of her contract as she was unable to protect my child in her care and why should I be penalised and have to pay for two child care providers when this is of no fault of myself or my daughter..

Ok ladies whats your thoughts........ Do I fight this? Do I stand a chance? I am really upset by the whole thing and just wanted what was best for by baby....xx
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You have NOT overreacted. She failed immediately when she did not inform you of the 1st bite. Why?? Ha she not been with them? Did she think she'd best not say anything at all? Lax, lax, lax.

I hope you win the case. I have seen too many childminders who are lazy.

As a childminder, I can say that I use accident and incident forms and other professional childminder should do the same. Biting incidents should have been recorded in these.
However I think you are totally unreasonable in removing your daughter because if this - and without notice! Yes, you owe the cm the money!

You would need to give a nursery notice and you need to give a childminder notice. Both run childcare businesses. There is no get out clause in the legal contract which says 'except in the cases of biting!'
You need to pay the cm the money and have a serious think about what your expectations for childcare are? Can't wrap them in cotton wool forever....

Is there anything in the standard contract about injury?

timothyclaypole reading the thread it seems to me that is generally the case.

Obviously I am not asserting that every person who has ever had a child that bit someone will think the OP is over-reacting - I'm not sure why you would choose to read it like that.

There is nothing in the contract about injury ( however I am based in Scotland and use SCMA ones. I imagine NCMA and Morton Michael ones etc willbe roughly the same).
You should also have received a copy of the contract and guidance notes as to how it was completed.

If you were unhappy with the quality of care, you need to complain to the relevant body, not withold payment, as ultimately will come acids as petty and your claims may not be upheld.
A complaint may warrant an investigation which is a better action to use.

I fear in the end, You will still need to pay (as you have broken the contract) and perhaps additional costs too.

I am also a childminder. I think YABU.

You and the CM should have followed the complaints procedure. If you were unhappy you should have had a face to face meeting with the childminder and put your complaint in writing.

Then if you thought the CM was in breach of regulations THEN remove your child from care. You cannot expect to remove your child and not pay the notice period because of 2 incidents of biting where other toddlers are present. It makes no difference if this is another mindee or the cm's own child. It also does not mean that the CM was not supervising properly. I have had my own children bitten by mindees and random children at toddler groups. There is rarely a warning. Please think twice before you go to Ofsted and potentially ruin the cm's career.

Of you course we also need clarification on whether or not any accident forms have been filled in.

As the OP has disappeared we probably won't get more information. I've had a bit of a ponder about her chances of pleading breach of contract at court based just on her OP. Now I usually deal with employment law and employment contracts and alleged breaching of those contracts but there is some cross over.

I think the OP is going to struggle because she has to prove the cm has done something or been negligent enough to breach the contract. Yes when the cm failed to report the first biting incident that was a potential breach but the OP then continued to use the cm's services and withdrew after a second biting incident where the cm did report it.

Therefore I can't see that there's been a breach of the trust and confidence that underpins the contract and notice should have been given.

YANBU. Childminders should stop expecting to get away with being so unprofessional and useless imo. I've had both of my children in nursery part time and neither of them have come home with bruises from biting, so it isn't inevitable (older daughter has since come home, sometimes via the hospital, with ridiculous injuries from her own daft behaviour at school e.g. jumping off walls, which I don't hold the school responsible for in the least, so I'm not all pfb before anyone says that). My older daughter went through a biting phase, too, and though she bit me hard enough for it to be quite painful and show toothmarks, it didn't come up with a huge bruise that was still visible hours later, so that is either a really severe bite such that her daughter is some kind of vampire infant who can't be allowed around other children without constant watching, or she didn't intervene in a reasonable time if she was watching. Also her handling of the first incident is terrible- I think you'd have been justified to stop her services then because she didn't tell you and for all you knew it could have been bruising from physical assault by her. I think she was in breach of her duty of care and you at least morally don't owe her anything! I'd think legally you don't either as long as you let her know at the time exactly why you were terminating her services without notice.

I'm amazed that the OP removed her child from nursery just because they were getting bugs!

I think the cm should have mentioned the first bite - I can't understand why she didn't. However I doubt your contract has a biting clause (I remember my sister(s) biting phase I think a lot of children do this). Unfortunately you are in breach of contract not cm.
Though cm will have not conformed with her policy on sharing info with parents re the initial bite. But as you elected to send DC back after the first incident its a moot point.
I would be pissed off in your position though.

eyebrows yes agree.

catchafallingstar what are the reasons that contract can be terminated immediately? Unless there are millions of course - not expecting you to type for hours!

I've worked in nurseries for years as a qualified NN. We had a child who was a biter and hurt quite a lot of the room, upsetting quite a few PFB parents. Took us 18 months before the biting stopped and recently she was on work experience and what a lovely young lady she's turned into. Biting does happen. Ds bit his sister but not anyone else.

Even the lightest of bites can leave bad bruising from experience. I was bitten by said child and on my neck and dh thought I had a love bite. So the childminder may well have intervened but the child still got their teeth into your dd.

But honestly I do think as you didn't give notice then you do need to pay her. I don't think that you can say her not stopping her child from biting was serious enough to breech the contract. I think the courts will see that too and it will work out much more expensive for you.

All children need to build up immune systems and they will get ill. It's a fact of life when you have children. I do think you need to stop stressing about things or else you'll find the challenges later in their childhood hard to deal with too.

WIBBLY,
What an awful attitude you have. Chilminders are unprofessional and useless? This is based on your personal experience how, as your dc went to a nursery.
As it happens, I took on a little boy of 2 yrs old who had been asked to leave by his nursery for biting. As opposed to CM's who have the time and low numbers of children to be able to give one to one care, this nursery acknowledged that in such a busy environmnet this wasn't possible. I never managed to completely get him out of the habit, but it certainly cut down drastically from when he was in a room of 12 or so kids being looked after by a bored 18 year old.
Kids come up in bruises easier than adukts as their skin is much thinner; hence why most kids are black and blue constantly.
As for,for all you knew it could have been bruising from physical assault by her words fail me, you nasty suspicious piece of work.

A contact has details for names, registration details, insurance, person responsible for paying, details of childminding agreement (special dietary needs, hours, meals, playgroup fees, other items to be provided by parent- such as nappies wipes etc, details of fees, overtime, unsocial hours, occasional minding, public holidays, charges for absence and lateness, annual holidays, retainers, notice of holidays, termination notice, review dates and signature.....
(phew!)

There is also a note for other information, so unless biting is specifically mentioned here, she hasn't broken the contract....you have....

Under 'termination' it says in bold " should either party decide to terminate the contract, notice of termination should be given in writing. The parent can terminate the written notice by payment in lieu of notice. Neither party can terminate the contract without giving written notice of termination unless the other party is in breach of the terms of contract".

I know a lot of people have mentioned duty of care and she has broken her contract etc....but unless it is absolutely specified on your contract what you mean by a 'duty of care' this is not the case.
Generally a childminding contract sets out the principal terms and conditions of which a registered childminder is to provide childminding services for a parent in respect of a child. It largely deals with payment, insurance, hours, charges etc.

If it were my child, I would be more interested in viewing the childminders bullying and/ or behaviour management policies. As I've said, any good childminder should also use accident/ incident forms.

Please note, the info I've given is from an SCMA contract which is a legally binding contract if filled in correctly.

What kind of contract did you have? Do you have a copy? Do you have copies of any policies?

Wobbly....words fail me....
Way to go in tarring an entire profession with the same brush....

What a shame your children have not benefited and enjoyed time with an excellent childminder!

catchafallingstar that's interesting. The contracts I have signed (not related to children) usually specify under what circs the agreement can be cancelled without notice.

IMO, and apologies I have not read the whole thread, your CM was wrong not to tell you about the bite (she should have filled out an incident form) but you were waaaaaay over the top with taking her out and saying you wouldn't pay her.

My boys both went through a biting phase - at separate times - and it was mortifying for OH to have to sign the book at nursery to say one or the other had bitten another child (quite often the other brother, but still!). These things happen if she is looking after 3 children it is really unreasonable to expect her to be able to keep them separated at all times. Sometimes children play together, and sometimes when a nappy needs changing it is not easy to lever one child off another

As I said, that info was taken from an SCMA (Scottish childminding association) contract.
As far as I can see, the parent can't break the contract without notice ( the childminder can specify how much - I use 4 weeks).
They can however insert an 'additional note' under this section and actually specify something like 'if a child bites my own child more than twice I reserve the right to withdraw my child from X's care' . The the parent and cm sign it and that's it sorted!

OK - I have now read the entire thread and I stand by my previous post. And wibbly - my boys still occasionally (to my horror!) will bite each other. You might not get a bruise from a bite from a small child, another small child probably will.

I'd also think that at 17 months it would be a very serious injury indeed if hours after the event the child would be drawing attention to the injury. A bite doesn't hurt unless the skin is broken or the the bruise is touched.

Also I agree OP just a touch PFB for taking DD out of nursery due to illness.

As a childminder, I also add the following points in the 'additional notes sections' in my contracts. One does mention pursuing costs - i think I'm perfectly reasonable and justified in inserting these points.

^6. If arrears of fees remain outstanding after 7 days, I will notify you of the non payment and you must make payment within 7 days. If fees remain unpaid I will:

a. withdraw further childcare until payment is made in full;
b. charge you for any bank charges I may incur due to your late payment
c. terminate this agreement and take any necessary legal action to recover all fees due and costs incurred in such action. ^

I also add

^Termination of Contract & agreement

1. I can end this agreement:: a. by giving you 4 weeks notice in writing; b. Immediately if you or any person who has responsibility for your child is abusive towards or acts in an inappropriate manner towards or in front of any other child or myself; c. The child shows threatening or abusive behaviour towards others d. Immediately if any fees remain outstanding as set out in Fees and Invoices.^

It doesn't matter if there's an expressed clause in the contract or not. A childminding contract is legally a contract for services. This means both parties have rights and obligations for a contract which is basically a provider agreeing to provide childcare for the client. There will also be various terms that will be expressed in the contract as described by some of the CMs on this thread.

However, to argue a breach of contract all that needs to be done is show the provider failed to provide adequate childcare. In the OP's case that is going to be tricky as already described. However, you would not expect there to be a clause in a contract that says ther is a right to termination of the contract if the child is severaly injured due to the negligence of the provider. That term would be implied under the definition of "childcare".

So it doesn't matter what the contract for services says unless it has a specific bit about biting or accident reporting (and tbh that's going to be iffy after returning the child to the setting after the failure to report) and that will only be taken into consideration when considering the wider point of whether the fundamental issue of whether the contract to provide childcare has been breached.

Where was the bitemark in the first incident anyway? If under clothes I think it's not entirely unrealistic, that she didn't realise that a kerfuffle between children involved a bite and subsequently a bruise or mark. If she had to fill out a form for every kerfuffle she'd probably have no time to actually look after the children.
I wouldn't immediately assume bad faith or negligence

As the 1st bite was on the child's shoulder, then it most likely was covered by clothing (otherwise OP would have seen it and commented on it at pick-up), so the CM most likely had no idea it was there. I'm a CM and if a child in my care was crying when I came into the room (from making drinks, going to the loo etc - and yes I'd make sure the children were happily playing 1st) I'd look for obvious cause of injury (i.e. if they were sitting on the floor next to an upturned child's chair I'd assume they'd slipped off with a bump) and comfort them - I wouldn't strip search them incase they'd been bitten! If it'd been a bite on the leg then the CM would have noticed it whilst doing nappy changes.

I haven't had a biter, but have had a scratcher - which luckily with lots of intervention resolved itself quickly - but incidents happen so fast - I literally couldn't get across the room quickly enough to stop the 2nd incident!

I agree with those who said you broke the contract and owe the CM 4 weeks notice. Also feel your DD must be quite unsettled by having to settle at nursery, then CM, then nursery - poor little thing!

Sorry I appear to be typing as if I have been on the gin I haven't (yet).