problems with childcare

[Melinwelin]

Hi Ladies
I would like to gage your reactions and comments please.

My daughter went to a local nursery from 9months old and I recently made the decision to move her to a childminder as she seemed to be constantly picking every bug up, other than that I was happy with her care.

I found a local childminder and she has a daughter the same age as my daughter (17months) and was also looking after another little girl 11months. During the second week I noticed my daughter had a really nasty bite on her shoulder (teeth marks and bruising) so I phoned the childminder who was apologetic and confessed that her daughter was going through a phase and she would keep an eye on the situation. I gave the benefit of the doubt but was not happy that it was not mentioned before. My daughter would have been really distressed and it played on my mind the whole of the weekend. During the 3rd week I collected her on the Wednesday to be told that a biting incident had happened again but the childminder had intervened, when I got home her little arm was so bruised that as far as I was concerned no intervention took place or if it had it was too late. I decided not to return my child to her care and managed to get her back into nursery on the Friday.

She had been paid upto the end of that week. She is now taking me to a small claims court for 4weeks notice (£620) but my argument is that she was in breech of her contract as she was unable to protect my child in her care and why should I be penalised and have to pay for two child care providers when this is of no fault of myself or my daughter..

Ok ladies whats your thoughts........ Do I fight this? Do I stand a chance? I am really upset by the whole thing and just wanted what was best for by baby....xx
___

No. Not really that was why it was in brackets. But I might say it if riled enough and I thought the care had been so poor as to be a breach of contract.

I'm not convinced I would have pulled out without notice myself. It would depend how the cm handled the situation.

I don't think the CM could prevent this, but she SHOULD have told you straight away, filled out an accident form etc., surely this is procedure across the board for all childcare facilities.

I would speak to a solicitor. The very fact that she didn't fill out a accident form may put her whole claim in jeopardy?

Other than that, then I think you over reacted, though understand how horrible it is to have a child who's been bitten, but it IS common.

there's a big difference between saying and doing. And I said if I was being a bitch.

In a group setting, there is always the risk of a bite.

Here there were two isolated incidents, two weeks apart. I do not think you would have the slightest chance of making this case stick, even in a civil action.

I don't think you are ready for the realities of a group setting. My DCs went to two nurseries, one much better than the other, but there were still incidents of biting (it offered ELG places, so couldn't refuse to admit children because they looked as if they might bite/hit/shove one day). And the winter bug season is approaching.

Experience costs, in terms of time, money and regrets. I think you should chalk this up to experience, and seek a nanny. A group setting just isn't going to work for you yet - and repeated precipitate moves will be hard on DD, and possibly cost you many more sets of lost fees on notice periods.

YANBU to be really upset. 'All' children do not bite, biting is not 'normal' for all children and if your child has been injured by another child on two separate occasions, then the CM is not supervising them appropriately and the failure to inform you confirms that for me. It's very easy to be blase about biting if your child has never been bitten so badly that the bruises are wful.
As for the legalities etc, I'm just not sure. Perhaps offer to pay half of the outstanding fees ?

I am a childminder and I would be taking you to small claims if you did this to me.

I have a ncma accident book which I must fill in for any injuries / accidents that may occur to children, does your cm have one of these?

The other thing is your cm will have a complaints procedure, so if your unhappy with something you discuss it and then if still unhappy you put it in writing. If your still not happy you have the right to contact ofsted.

We all know that children can carry out things in the matter of seconds that we are getting a drink or not looking, I really do feel you will loose this one, aslong as she has accident book, and the complaint logged then she will more than likely win.

The short of it is you should of given notice.

I am a childminder and I would be taking you to small claims if you did this to me.

I have a ncma accident book which I must fill in for any injuries / accidents that may occur to children, does your cm have one of these?

The other thing is your cm will have a complaints procedure, so if your unhappy with something you discuss it and then if still unhappy you put it in writing. If your still not happy you have the right to contact ofsted.

We all know that children can carry out things in the matter of seconds that we are getting a drink or not looking, I really do feel you will loose this one, aslong as she has accident book, and the complaint logged then she will more than likely win.

The short of it is you should of given notice.

Sassybeast, my child was bitten repeatedly and (unlike the OPs dd) was quite upset about it. And yes, the bruises were bad. And I was upset too.

I still maintain that would have been unrealistic to blame the childminder for not standing between him and the biter every single second of the day.

She should have informed you, OP. But I don't think you'll get any money out of her.

And I think you could end up unsettling your dd and making her very fearful if your response to every minor injury/illness is to withdraw her from the setting.

I don't think yabu because the childminder didn't tell you. Some kids do bite/hit/hurt other kids and it is hard for someone to prevent that entirely, however whenever my kids have been involved in such an incident, whether at school or at nursery, we have been told about it on collection and it has been explained that they are working with the perpertrator and their parents to put a stop to it.

The fact that she only told you when you noticed the bitemarks and asked about it would set alarms bells off for me.

How do you know the OPs DD wasn't upset about it?

She might have been upset for ages but calmed down before her mother collected her.

I wasn't making any judgements on the parents of 'biters', I just said I didn't understand why some children do and some don't. And if it was as common as some people say, you would think I might have come across it.

I do think that if you are aware your child is a 'biter', you should be keeping a closer eye on them for a while - especially if it is your livelihood.

YANBU in moving your child (imo - I would too) but as for the legal side, as I said, I don't know. Some of the other ladies on here that are CM are obviously in a better position to advise on that.

I hope your DD is settled and happy now.

Yes, in which case she was not as upset as my ds, Sardine.

I still don't think I would have helped ds by pulling him out of every setting where anything upsetting happened to him. Or blaming someone for an incident that happens so quickly and easily.

I would have had words with the CM about not informing me, though.

Contact hse about it! HSE investigate serious accidents - for example accidents that have led to an employee being off work for 5 days or more. They would either laugh at you if you phoned with this, or if they were polite said it is not a matter for them.

OP - Of course you can remove your child for any reason from any childcare setting - whether others think it is justified or not. But I think the cm is right that you are breaching your contract and you will lose this case. If I was you I would pay up rather than having a judgement made against me in the small claims court.

Not all children bite, you were unhappy that your child was being hurt, you took her out of the childminder's care because of it.
Whether she intervened or not, you didn't feel happy with your DC being in this particular environment.
Let the small claims court decide.
Either way, you did what you thought was best.

Yes cory but you said "assybeast, my child was bitten repeatedly and (unlike the OPs dd) was quite upset about it." ie your child was quite upset (which means not very) and OPs daughter was even less troubled (ie not at all).

i don't think you can say for certain that OPs DD wasn't at all troubled by it - if there were teeth marks it would have really hurt (I speak from experience).

somethingwillturnup Fri 23-Sep-11 09:36:34
"I wasn't making any judgements on the parents of 'biters', I just said I didn't understand why some children do and some don't. And if it was as common as some people say, you would think I might have come across it.

I do think that if you are aware your child is a 'biter', you should be keeping a closer eye on them for a while - especially if it is your livelihood."

But if you did have a biter you would know that keeping a close eye to the extent of guaranteeing that they do not bite would mean literally standing between them and all other children every single minute of the day. To be absolutely sure, you could never take your hands away to e.g. help another child on with her shoes, because biter toddlers typically strike without warning, for no reason at all.

This would mean leaving the other children without help: it would also mean the children never got a chance of playing normally together.

And the biting stage can last for months.

Imho the best you can do is to keep as close an eye as you can, to prevent any incidents you can without absolutely neglecting the other children, and then go in for damage limitation- making sure the biter knows it is wrong and reassuring the bitten child. And naturally keeping the parents informed.

As a CM I fill out an incident/accident form which the parents sign if something happens. In many years of CMing I have only had one (minor) biting incident. However I do know some kids are biters and that action needs to be taken. Perhaps this CM's child is biting other mindees as the attention of mum is diverted from her? A big learning curve for her. I have no children of my own, so cannot fully comment re that.

Incidents like this can happen very quickly, even if she is sitting on the CM's lap. She forgot to tell you re the first incident (NOT good! But mistakes can happen), she told you re the second... but there was no incident form ever signed? Not good. You BOTH need proof that it took place and what action was taken then and what action will be taken in the future. Did you take a dated photo of the bites by any chance?

If she was using a standard NCMA contract, then yes, the notice period payment is due I am afraid.

I know you are feeling upset by this, I would take a big breath and call her and ask if you can come to an agreement with her. Meet her halfway maybe?

YABU, you have a contract with the childminder and you have broken it (unless there is a clause saying if PFB gets bit then you can withdraw her without any financial loss from yourself).

Actually Lesley33 if you read what I wrote I said if she threatened me with small claims court I would be inclined to say I would go to OFSTED and added HSE in brackets as I have explained already on the thread. That doesn't mean I would actually do it but I might threaten to if I felt the CM had behaved in such a way as to breach the contract and was then threatening me. I would be livid.

Obviously the OP felt the situation was so severe it was a breach of contract. Whether that is true or not we can't know because we only have the one post to go on but for the purpose of the thread we assume the OP believes it. My advice was based on a breach of contract issue.

As I said in my later post I'm not sure I personally would have pulled out without notice but without all the facts who knows?

"Biting phases are not uncommon and generally short lived."

"And the biting stage can last for months. "

Seems to be some uncertainty as to how long this will go on!

I would not put my child in a situation where it was repeatedly being bitten by another child. If it was anything else doing the biting it would be totally out of line but as it's a human it's OK? It still hurts like fuck and has a good chance of causing an infection. The child is only 17mo.

SQ: I posted that the DD had either got over it or had been unconcerned. The DD did not mention the incident to her mother (I think we can safely assume it would be in the OP if she had), and - although I'm aware I'm making assumptions here - such an assiduous mother as OP would have asked the child about her day. Still nothing.

Where is OP? We need more info.

"The DD did not mention the incident to her mother"

She's 17 months old. She might well not be able to talk.

Edith your post seems to be in response to an exchange I am having with cory? That is a bit confusing.