to wonder if posters on here would refer to Islam as "a load of old tosh"..

[OhdearNigel]

...in the same way that they think it is acceptable to ridicule Christianity. If a poster had started a thread about considering joining a mosque I wonder how many people would be prepared to post that Muslims were a bunch of bigoted fools due to their religious belief on homosexuality ? Or that a Hindu's beliefs were, to quote " a load of old tosh" ? If you don't think that would be alright to post, it's not alright to post it about Christianity either.

As an atheist I have no reason to think that Allah, Unicorns,Jehovah or Elves are real.

Organised religions only differ from belief in unicorns in that they are organised and therefore more able to cause trouble

Only religious people care about the differences between religions since those differences are trivial.

So if you are meeting lots of people who are anti Christian but pro Muslim they are probably Muslims, and vice versa

Empujsa - dara o'brien's ignorance is tragic, but that's his problem.

that has nothing to do with me and my ability to think and express myself.

I have been on the planet 41 years now - first 10 years I wasn't much cop, but ever since then I have been thinking, reading and talking about things.

I haven't read the Bible or the Koran cover to cover. Who on this thread has I wonder?

But to suggest that because I haven't dedicated my life to religious studies, I am not allowed to comment, or my comments hold no worth is just tosh.

I share my house with a Muslim - my au pair is from Turkey. She drinks alcohol and doesn't cover her head. She won't eat pork. If she went to Afghanistan or some parts of Pakistan and went out as a woman on her own and had a beer, no doubt somone would try to kill her in the name of Allah.

I am entitled to have views about that.

This isn't just Muslim bashing of course. Other religions behave in equally repellent ways. I look at the Jews in Israel, the Westboro Baptist church, etc, etc, etc.

Of course people pop up and whinge - but that isn't what the Koran/Bible/Torah says! Well tough - there are lots of people out there who do disgusting things to other human beings and say their religion compells them to do this. Why don't your religious leaders speak out about this?

Spero I think you misunderstood, he was saying why he talks more about Christianity than Islam is as simple as he knows more about one than the other. So it's easier to talk about the one he knows about.

Nothing about not having a view on it.

What reason do we have to believe you are real onagar?

all organised religion is tosh, bigoted, intolerant. Plenty of christians are homophobic and plenty of muslims aren't.

I would never post anything against any ones religion unless it was being used a weapon against me. I am an evolutionist but I dont tell people all the time about it. Religion is a personal thing if thats what you beleive in then good for you.

Meteorite good question (prods bits to see if it hurts) :o

The correct answer of course is that you can never know anything for certain so we live by probabilities. Thus I have reason to believe New York is real (though I've never been there) since I have information from many different sources about it which add up to virtual - but never complete - certainty.

If I see a box marked oranges that feels about the right weight to be oranges I will tentatively assume it contains oranges. If someone says it doesn't I will open it and check.

Religion looks at a tree and says "ha! yes that proves there is a creator who made the world (probably in 7 days) his name is jehovah/allah and he will be along in a few 1000 years to give me a huge reward if I have kept my face covered/cut my hair a certain way.

Too much from too little evidence.

The Beast - So you're asking all Muslims (and whoever else) to have to justify themselves to the non-believing 'normals' in order to be thought of as decent human beings. Do you not see any problem with that at all?

I repeat, I do not have to justify myself to you. If you chose to be bigoted, that's your choice, not my failing. If someone holds bigoted stereotypes about black people, is it the job of the black person to educate them, or should the bigot not be bigoted in the first place?

You act like there are no atheists/agnostics who are bigoted/racist or homophobic. Sadly untrue.

There's been some posters on here who have 'converted' to Christianity and other posters on here saying atheists are commenting on religion when they can't possibly again.

I think it is worth pointing out again that this is culturally a Christian country. Many atheists will have been brought up within a religion, attending church, being taught a a lot about religion. Others will have attended a church school.

Why does somebody who has 'converted' to Christianity have more ownership of what kind of comments can be made about Christianity, or have more knowledge of what Christian teaching is than an atheist raised as a Christian who has come to reject it?

People are going to make more cultural use of Christianity because it is a massive part of our culture (and sometimes, like in schools, that is legally enforced). Some of those uses are going to be negative, and I think that religious Christians should accept that, because they hugely benefit from the special cultural status that this country gives to Christianity.

That should have been 'they can't possibly know that much about it.'

I have no idea why I have written 'again.'

Milly - indeed - I spend the first couple of decades of my life as a christian - not merely 'raised' one, I was one till I took a leap away from faith.

Yup, me too; raised Christian, was a Sunday School teacher in my teens, total non-believer now.

But my sister is Born Again Evangelical, my other sister is wishywashy Xtian, my brother an atheist like me.

Anyone who believes there is a magic man in the sky believes a load of old tosh IMO. Dont care what they think the magic mans name is.

anyone who doesn't believe there is a higher being is speaking a load of tosh and i don't care what you think.

the above is merely an illustration of impolite posting. one can debate religion and beliefs without being rude

eye for an eye ay Custardo

I don't think that's rude. I could lie and say it matters to me, but it doesnt. People can believe what they like but I am entitled to think those beliefs are "a load of old tosh" and am not in any way obliged to pretend differently. Some people believe in UFOs, some people believe in ghosts - I don't have to and I don't have to respect thier beliefs - only their right hold them.

TheBeast, I'll answer your questions as you have asked people of faith to, I'm similar to CheerfulYank in some outlooks. I'm truly sorry about your situation.

1. Creationism - no. Metaphor for whatever really happened, the 'days' in the original language meant 'periods of time'
2. Virgin Birth - Yes, if God is powerful enough for resurrection then no problem
3. The resurrection -Yes
4. Eternal life -Yes
5. Reincarnation - No
6. Heaven - Yes
7. Hell - Not sure. Poss eternal seperation/nothingness. Not fire and brimstone.
8. Purgatory - No
9. Your belief is the only true belief - I believe Jesus is the only way but I don't believe that means that those who haven't heard of him/follow other religions are not going to be in heaven, God is far bigger than anyone can understand, and if there is anything I know with all my being it is that God is just, and also that God loves unconditionally. So saying 'my way is the only way' is somewhat arrogant and un-Jesus like.

Homosexuality...as you say, couple of random passages and people take their hate to extremes. It's diabolical what has been done in the name of Christianity. Even the OT passages in their context when talking about homosexuality being wrong etc were referring to the rape of young male slaves etc as there was no contextual norm of committed gay relationships. People need to use their brains and reason.

Spreading the good news - well, we were told to. If you had found something you believed transformed lives again and again and gave people hope then would you keep it to yourself? Surely that would be the selfish thing to do. I do not advocate shouting in the street or knocking on doors to tell people they will burn in hell, but I do believe in justice, loving the poor and being generous. I am aware that this is not a Christian prerogative; I believe simply that we are all made in God's image thus all have capacity for good. Being a Christian does not make someone better than someone else.

It makes an incredible difference to me, as someone with a long term and progressive disease, to have hope and purpose and peace.

I hope this begins to answer some questions,

excellent post madhairday

:o @falsetittytosh

Katie Price would have put false eyelashes on the Baby Jesus to liven him up a bit.

Custardo - one woman's rudeness is just another woman's robust plain speaking. Once you start objecting to debate because you subjectively believe someone is being rude, that is a recipe for all sorts of trouble.

I have already been called 'evil' on this thread, but it doesn't bother me. I know by my definition ( the only one that matters to me) I am not.

Unless you use words to incite others to commit a criminal offence I very strongly believe you should be allowed to say whatever you want how ever you want to. If some people get upset and offended, that is a price worth paying. Otherwise the debate can only continue at the level of the most sensitive and vulnerable member of the discussion.

Oh and I have read the Bible cover to cover. Lots of times. :)

< gives cheerful a big hug >

I have read both the Quran and Bible cover to cover. [yawn and stretch] and I am always have been, an atheist. Know thy enemy.

Not much difference between the old testament and the Quran, but the New Testament is a lot nicer.

I tried to read the bible once but it seemed to be pages and pages of 'Blahblah who was born of incomprehensible name' so I gave up before I got to any of the good bits.

not objecting to debate, just asking for a little thought to be put into how it is couched.