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AIBU?

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Original poster

To have no sympathy for the burglar

758 replies

Mitmoo · 19/09/2011 09:10

Another burglar has been stabbed to death when he broke into a businessman's home. His wife and child were returning to the property. The details are very scant at the moment as it is early day.

But the burglars who were stabbed robbing a shop, and an edlerly shopkeeper killed one of them, he was not prosecuted. I think that's right.

It's on R5Live now being debated after another burglar was killed at the weekend.

Personally I think home burglars should take getting stabbed as a occupational hazard. I have no sympathy for them.

OP posts:
pigletmania · 19/09/2011 18:18

MIFLAW what about the victims rights! To me the burglar left his rights on the doorstep the day he pushed passed the homeowner threatening him with a weapon. You would not say that if that was YOU in that position would you. Yes the homeowner was acting in self defense the guy was armed so the homeowner used all within his power to save his life. why the hell should he worry about a criminals life, who does not give two hoots about him and his family.

BatsUpMeNightie · 19/09/2011 18:19

What peculiar terminology you use miflaw. Handy? Sounds like crim-speak to me. I wonder if you're coming at this from the point of view you are for a reason that you have yet to explain to us?

pigletmania · 19/09/2011 18:19

Thats what can happen when you burgle a home

pippilongsmurfing · 19/09/2011 18:20

Just because people don't think killing another human being is reasonable doesn't mean they are burglar apologists (well, I'm not anyway), I think that if the burglar was stabbed and accidently died that is reasonable force, but if the birglar was trying to flee and was stabbed or was stabbed repeatedly, more than was needed to subdue him then that is unreasonable.

Miflaw I can see your POV, I don't agree with all this 'they're all scum, hang 'em and flog 'em and delight in their downfall either.

pigletmania · 19/09/2011 18:20

MIFLAW are you friends with any burglars per chance!

MIFLAW · 19/09/2011 18:21

I meant the burglar wasn't handy with his knife or he wouldn't have had it taken off him and it wouldn't have ended up in him. Yet more evidence to my mind that he took it along mainly for show rather than with any serious intent to use it. Very, very stupid thing to do, of course - but, again, chips away a bit at this image of a dark criminal mastermind.

pippilongsmurfing · 19/09/2011 18:21

What peculiar terminology you use miflaw. Handy? Sounds like crim-speak to me. I wonder if you're coming at this from the point of view you are for a reason that you have yet to explain to us?

Oh yes bats, it's cos she's a burglar innit. Hmm FFS.

fluffles · 19/09/2011 18:21

i have sympathy for the burgler, because he's DEAD, and i have sympathy for his family, because they loved him, and he's DEAD.

that does NOT mean that i don't have tons of sympathy for the man who killed him. in fact, i support that man entirely in his actions (as far as i know the circumstances).

but i believe that even bad people, or people who make bad choices can be mourned when a life is lost.

MIFLAW · 19/09/2011 18:22

"So if I arrived home and suspected that my husband was being attacked by intruders, I'd be thick for going in and trying to help him?" Yes, of course you bloody would, not least because, unless you are armed yourself or are skilled in the art of self-defence, you would be endangering yourself and him.

pigletmania · 19/09/2011 18:22

MIFLAW how the hell does the homeowner know that he will not use it, oh what "Mr burglar are you going to stab me with that or are you just using that to threaten me" dont be silly, in that situation you have a spit second to react if you think you might well be dead.

MIFLAW · 19/09/2011 18:23

"MIFLAW are you friends with any burglars per chance!"

No. Are you friends with any good libel lawyers perchance (NB - one word)?

mayorquimby · 19/09/2011 18:24

"To me the burglar left his rights on the doorstep the day he pushed passed the homeowner threatening him with a weapon."
You don't really mean that though do you?
So if the homeowner managed to subdue them, lets for example say they knocked them out and tied them up, you'd endorse them repeatedly beating and torturing the burglar? or perhaps repeatedly raping them? The whole point of rights is that they apply to everyone equally and can be subjected to restrictions or minimised in accordance with law.

pigletmania · 19/09/2011 18:25

MIFLAW I hope that you never find yourself in the situation whereby you have to make those decisions.

pigletmania · 19/09/2011 18:27

mayor no I would not, but if saving my life means that I have to use a knife or anything that i had to hand on them to get them off me than i would. And if that resulted in me killing them, than i have acted in self defense.

Hardgoing · 19/09/2011 18:28

MIFLAW, no evidence that the burglar wasn't handy with a knife at all, he may have been very handy had the door been opened by someone weaker or more physically vulnerable. There's nothing 'stupid' about it, or 'bungling', it's a really nasty wicked thing to have done to someone, terrorised them in their own home with a knife.

I don't feel happy that burglar is dead, I think it is right that the man who killed him is investigated thoroughly (to find out what really happened) and then a legal decision is taken.

But trying to make him out to be a bit bungling and stupid, that seems to me to be making as many unfounded assumptions about him as those who made assumptions about drug use and so on.

MIFLAW · 19/09/2011 18:28

Scenario 1 - in which a criminal wants to stab a victim.

Criminal knocks on door. Victim answers door (perhaps foolishly, but still.) Criminal stabs him while off guard, the door possibly impeding the victim's right arm and therefore, combined with element of surprise, making him a comparatively easy target.

Scenario 2 - in which a criminal wants to rob a victim.

Criminal knocks on door. Victim answers door (perhaps foolishly, but still.) Criminal waves knife in his face. Victim quite reasonably shits himself and gets well out of the way. Burglary proceeds.

so, the homeowner doesn't know that the burglar won't use it - but if he lives through the first five seconds and has no enemies in the underworld, I think he might start to sense that the knife is there as a last resort.

mayorquimby · 19/09/2011 18:28

"chips away a bit at this image of a dark criminal mastermind."

Don't think anyone is painting him as a criminal mastermind. Criminal masterminds don't normally get their hands dirty. And in general thieves and criminals are thick as pig shit, otherwise they'd have a way of making money that doesn't risk jail time. However I'd be much more afraid of dumb as ditch water burglar with a knife than a criminal mastermind who may be liable to panic and do something drastic than a criminal mastermind. And whether he brought the knife for show or with the intent to use it is irrelevant as far as the home owner is concerned, as is whether the burglar was military trained in it's use or had never held a knife before in his life.

pigletmania · 19/09/2011 18:29

and no i would not be happy about it but know that i acted in self defense. Same if i was attacked in a dark alley and had something sharp in my bag, I would sure hell use it on the attacker if that meant it gave me precious time to escape.

mayorquimby · 19/09/2011 18:30

"mayor no I would not, but if saving my life means that I have to use a knife or anything that i had to hand on them to get them off me than i would. And if that resulted in me killing them, than i have acted in self defense."

So then quite the opposite to believing that the burglar leaves their rights at the door you in fact fully endorse their legal rights and would only support their killing if it was in self-defence?

pigletmania · 19/09/2011 18:31

Yes i would only if i was being threatened and the burglar or attacker was trying to harm me or my family.

MIFLAW · 19/09/2011 18:32

Hardgoing, Mayor - we don't disagree at all then.

"I think it is right that the man who killed him is investigated thoroughly (to find out what really happened) and then a legal decision is taken."

I'm not trying to make him appear bungling and stupid - he made himself appear bungling and stupid. That's why his burglary failed and why he is now, sadly, dead.

But, as I have said repeatedly, my main gripe is not with whether or not the burglar was killed rightly or not; it's with this whole nonsense about whether burglars are "scum" who have no rights or people who matter to other people and whose life matters more than property.

Springyknickersohnovicars · 19/09/2011 18:32

*MIFLAW

No. Are you friends with any good libel lawyers perchance (NB - one word)?*

May I assume that you believe your posts have been 100 percent correct in terms of spelling and grammar on this thread to be in a position to correct others?

Shudders at smartarses pedants.

pigletmania · 19/09/2011 18:32

If my dc or dh was being attacked by a burglar i would sure hell het a knife from the kitchen and plunge it into them, no worries to disable them and get them off my family

MIFLAW · 19/09/2011 18:33

Piglet

That's exactly it. I don't think anyone is saying that the victim had no right to defend himself; just that it IS a right which is defined in law and needs treating as such, rather than cheering the death of another person.

MIFLAW · 19/09/2011 18:34

May I assume that you believe your posts have been 100 percent correct in terms of spelling and grammar on this thread to be in a position to correct others?

Shudders at smartarses pedants.

No, you're quite right. That was cheap of me.

So let's return to the main point of that post which was to ask for an apology for a public libel.