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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

are Christians short on logical abilities? and

126 replies

mummyonvalium · 18/09/2011 22:00

Do atheists have a superior logic?

I am not prone to thinking that there are fairies at the bottom of the garden. However, I believe in God because:-
a) I believe that the universe is too complex for there to be nothing else to it other than a complete void of nothingness.

b) human beings are really complex creatures and I struggle to believe that we just "evolved" this way.

I understand the scientific view point really well - that you should only believe what you know to be true for a fact, so I am not looking to be reminded of this. But the above feelings always bring me back to essentially what is a Christian faith.

Do atheists ever look at the world around them and question it, the same way a person who has faith does? How would the atheist respond to the feelings I have, that actually there is just something so much bigger than us, that is actually almost incomprehensible?

I am reasonably logical and have a first class hons from a mid-range uni. I know one person who is a Christian who has a PHD in Maths and loads of other really bright, interesting Christians. We are obviously not all thick or short on logical abilities. Why do atheists think bright and erudite people believe in God and choose to be a Christian?

Discuss.

OP posts:
royaljelly · 19/09/2011 00:35

The lines between atheism and faith seemed to have got blurred here.

You can still be and atheist and have faith, (faith in humankind)
You can still be an athiest and have morality, (know the difference between right and wrong)
You can still be an athiest and feel empathy, ( the feelings of others, inc. different religions)

As an atheist my self I am not waiting for the next Messiah or Mohammed etc. but will try to do my best FOR ALL MANKIND in my everyday life.

I have faith in myself to be the best I can be.
I encourage wrongs to be put right.
I feel the pain of both sides when at war and understand anger, fear and retaliation as my own.

NotADudeExactly · 19/09/2011 00:38

You can still be an athiest and have morality, (know the difference between right and wrong)

Definitely. I would in fact argue that the moral sense of theists is generally not inspired by their religion - even if they themselves would say it is.

NotADudeExactly · 19/09/2011 00:39

Rephrase: the moral sense of theists may be inspired by but is usually not entirely reliant on their religion.

Makes more sense this way.

RatherBe · 19/09/2011 00:41

I don't really understand what 'superior logic' might be. Surely logic, as the study of reason, is absolute? An argument is either logical or not, and the logic cannot be superior or inferior.

eekamouse2 · 19/09/2011 00:43

Thank you Mr Spock Grin

RatherBe · 19/09/2011 00:45
Grin
LineRunner · 19/09/2011 00:48

Did anyone see Lord Gould's interview with Andrew Marr this morning? He is facing his terminal illness by embracing the clarity and intensity of his existence in the world since his diagnosis. That has nothing to do with religion but it made me feel a hell of a lot better about the thought of dying which let's face us is with us all sooner or later.

His legacy thought is, Never give up. Pass on ideas and inspiration to the next generation who can do something about structuring society and ideas.

You don't need a religion for that - but you do need human minds in a community. And that ends up being 'civilisation' and 'politics'.

royaljelly · 19/09/2011 01:01

LineRunner Didn't see the interview but I think I know your train of thought. At the end of my life I will probably have FAITH; this should not be interpreted as religion.

I will be judged on what I have accomplished in this life by my peers, (and hopefully)(buddahism)(I will be back to rectify any mistakes!).

Must admit I can only see myself in some afterlife as hounding my kids to do well.

LineRunner · 19/09/2011 01:17

If the earliest 'religious' acts (widely though to be flowers on Neanderthal burials and shells on Natufian graves) were based on acknowledgement of anything, then it was surely death. And those acts were a way of negotiating between the living world and death.

Religion is just a fancy way of dealing with death. Of trying to control the uncontrollable.

royaljelly · 19/09/2011 01:26

LineRunner would have replaced uncrontrollable with inevitable.

As soon as we are born we are dying!

I think being an atheist, maybe you are less scared of what 'awaits' you.; ie nothing!

nooka · 19/09/2011 02:37

I don't think that the members of my family who have faith in god are scared of death, after all they are all oping for something fairly fantastic afterward. They find their faith both a comfort and a challenge. Whilst for myself I don't really think about death very much, and find that religion leaves me cold. I know all the responses but nothing resonates, which is fundamentally why I am an atheist.

GothAnneGeddes · 19/09/2011 03:23

Eeakamouse - You opened the Quran ( which says that there is no compulsion in religion btw, nothing about dying by a sword) at random and now you're an expert on Islam?

It would be marvellous if just once, some one could mention that they were Muslim on here, without some arsewit dolling out top Islamophobic tropes 101. It's no great secret that some people really, really don't like Islam, they're not shy about saying why over vast areas of the internet, we've heard it all before and it's boring.

Back to the OP. I, personally would like to do a deal. Theists should agree that you can be an atheist and just as moral and good as a theist, and atheists should agree that you can be clever and and a theist.

NotADudeExactly · 19/09/2011 04:04

No issues with your deal there; of course there are some extremely smart theists. The pope (with whom I disagree not only about religion but about pretty much his entire politics too, by the way) is an extremely intelligent man, IMHO. So are many other intellectuals who happen to be religious. Yes, I personally think that they have let conditioning or their desire for there to be "something" (or some other factor) cloud their judgment when it comes to the god question. Or that their arguments are fallacious. I would have to, otherwise I'd be a theist myself. That absolutely doesn't mean that they're stupid, though.

GothAnneGeddes, I absolutely get what you are saying re. Islamophobia. As stated above, it's something I have issues with. As an atheist I sort of do have a problem with islam - insofar as IMHO it is a belief system based on false assumptions and propagates adherence to rules that are, from my POV, completely arbitrary and not necessarily good for people. How do I say this without the EDL crowd going "yeeeeeeaaaaah!".

I often tend to find myself defending islam and pointing out how things that people dislike about it are present to the same or even a greater degree in christianity. It's actually really not something I want to be doing. I'm an atheist, FFS - just not a racist and a bigot.

GothAnneGeddes · 19/09/2011 04:40

Not - Likewise, I obviously disagree with atheism, but I think each to their own, rather then running out a big list of why I disagree with atheists everytime the word is mentioned. I wish people would do the same with Islam.

Thumbwitch · 19/09/2011 05:14

I haven't read this through so may be repeating but:

"I understand the scientific view point really well - that you should only believe what you know to be true for a fact" - disagree.
If that were "true", no novel research would ever be done. "Science" would simply stagnate, because the scientists wouldn't be able to put forward working hypotheses, which may be considered "fact" up until someone disproves them (which can take a bloody long time in some instances, and very little in others). Some people believe in cold fusion because they believe they have seen it with their own eyes, as it were - others refuse to believe it because they haven't seen it and therefore it cannot be possible. Who is right? To those who have seen it, it's fact; to those who haven't, it's not. IF someone were to achieve reproducible cold fusion, that would validate the experience of those who say they have achieved it and cold fusion would become "fact" for all. But it can't be disproven easily - as there is always the possibility that it could happen if you get all the elements right.

Plenty of scientists "believe" stuff that may or may not be true - they only believe that which they have experience of and cannot open their minds to other possibilities. You get dogmatic people in all walks of life.

Since you can neither prove nor disprove the existence of God, it has to be an article of faith - there is no "fact" about it.

Now I've noticed that the discussion has turned to Islam - I have only this to say - I spent several hours discussing Islam with an English friend who had converted to Islam to marry her DH. She corrected a lot of my misapprehensions, including the use of the word "fundamentalist" to describe people like members of the Taliban - she was livid at that description as their beliefs, she said, directly contravene some of the teachings of the Q'ran and so she said they should always be described as "extremists", not "fundamentalists", as they went against the fundamental tenets of Islam. (She is a feminist as well, btw - she copes with combining the two because she lives in Indonesia, which has varying levels of strictness). But I wouldn't call myself an expert on Islam from those few hours of intense discussion! Just slightly more enlightened.

NotADudeExactly · 19/09/2011 05:17

As said before: I see where you're coming from. Mainly because DH is a Palestinian Muslim. He's not devout but still a believer and convinced that I am dead wrong.

Whenever someone learns where he's from the conversation usually goes like this:

Them: Aww, you're so brave, not wearing a headscarf and all. Does he beat you badly, then?
Me: WTF?!
Them: Yeah, because burqa, FGM, gobbledok, blabla.
Me:
Them: I see. So as a muslim you ...
Me: Actually, I'm an atheist. In my opinion all of what I've just given you that lengthy lecture on is majorly absurd!
Them: ?!? Confused

The thing is: I actually really do enjoy debating religion (and politics for that matter). I just hate feeling that while I'm arguing my point I also have to be careful not to play into the hands of racists and bigots with what I'm saying.

Whatmeworry · 19/09/2011 07:14

Seeing some of the other things MNers believe where there is hard data saying they are wrong, Christians are a damn sight more logical than some.

Someonesnotinbed · 19/09/2011 07:56

I have a first class degree from a good university and a PhD in Maths. (go me!)

I can confirm it is possible to have both of these things and still be thick.

Dillydaydreaming · 19/09/2011 08:01

Yeah! In answer to thread I am Christian and short on logic Hmm

Feck right off - you believe (or don't believe) as you choose and I will do likewise. Only difference is that I won't ridicule you or ask if you are short in logic for your ideals. Hmm

PoppaRob · 19/09/2011 08:03

I may be making a generalisation, but most of we atheists of advancing age started off as having some sort of affiliation, or were indoctrinated into, a mainstream religion. I was adopted by C of E parents who had to go to church to be approved to be able to adopt me, was baptised, went to a C of E school, was confirmed, and eventually made the decision that things didn't seem to add up, so I did some reading, looked into other religions (especially Islam and Bhuddism), visited a mosque and a Bhuddist centre and asked some questions, along came Carl Sagan's Cosmos TV series, and I came to the conclusion that there was no god. In 1999 at the age of 42 I found myself in cardiac intensive care with congestive heart failure which came to light when I presented at A&E having had a stroke. The cardiologist said we'd know more within 2 weeks, assuming I survived that long. I well remember laying in bed thinking if there was ever a good time to do a deal with a higher power this was it, but try as I may, and even with all the indoctrination into Christianity I'd had, I realised there was no logical case for belief and went on to the revelations that if I died (1) I wouldn't have to do my tax and (2) I'd never find out how Star Wars ended. Hence this is me - I'm an atheist.

Let's put aside the statistically insignificant minority of people of faith who follow religions such as Islam, Hinduism, Bhuddism, etc. in Australia, and the larger group (but still a statistical minority) of C of E, RC, Uniting Church, Mormon, Jehovah's Witnesses etc. within the Australian population who it would be reasonable to say were brought up in their religion and continued, or perhaps lapsed but then returned to the flock.

In Australia at least, over the past 20 or 30 years what is popularly portrayed as Christianity seems to have become the domain of the evangelical movement, especially pentecostals and baptists. The Assemblies of God Church here even has a political arm called Family First. Let's just say that a typical cross-section of their followers is not particularly well educated so not really capable of following logic or framing a good argument, and is looking for easy answers readily provided by the polished and smug real estate agent / Amway rep style of often unordained pastors, who will not hesitate to paint any other religion or subset of their brand of Christianity as misguided, a distortion of "the truth", or even the work of the devil. With their redneck American style of evangelism Islam becomes an easy target. They do put on a good morning tea and their music, while usually plagiarised pop songs where God or Jesus has been subsituted for darling or sweetheart, is at least catchy and gets the toes tapping and the hands clapping. When they're not having one on one conversations with God they're busy pasting urban legends and ill founded right wing political mistruths into their statuses on Facebook.

I'm happy to discuss religion with the first group, but I'm buggered if I'll waste my time on the second. As Billy Connolly would say - They're more to be pitied than scorned.

Someonesnotinbed · 19/09/2011 08:13

You'd never find out how Star Wars ended? You do realise the later films are prequels don't you??

NotADudeExactly · 19/09/2011 08:13

PoppaRob: I understand where you're coming from. Debating the type of Christian you have described is really only enjoyable if you happen to like the sensation of your head repeatedly hitting the wall.

That having been said: I do happen to think that it is important to take exactly these types on. Mostly because they are the very ones that seem to feel so very entitled to impose their religious ideas on the rest of us and tend to make things political. I tend to think that arguing with them is as much playing to the audience as actually trying to convince the other side of my POV - if only to make sure they don't end up convincing even more people.

ragged · 19/09/2011 08:16

OP, get back on the Valium. Then it will all seem alright after all.

TurkeyBurgerThing · 19/09/2011 08:30

We (the entire human race) are only the blink of an eye compared to everything else. I think it's fine to believe that there is another, greater being that has created us. Why we're here, why WE are here NOW, life, and what's out there and happens when we're dead is the BIGGEST head-fuck ever imaginable and we'll never get an answer because there isn't one!

However, I don't think there is a bigger plan and once you're dead you're dead game over. But at least you won't be disappointed because you won't know about it!

Having said that I'm glad I'm here now and that I won't be here when the earth explodes! That's not going to be nice.

PoppaRob · 19/09/2011 09:04

Yes, Someonesnotinbed, I do realise that. I just wanted to see the Anakin to Darth Vader transformation conclude. All three prequels were so bloody disappointing... I think the high point was Yoda on the landing ship saying "around the survivors a perimeter create".

NotADudeExactly, I do in real life, just not on forums. When the local Family First candidate comes to our shopping centre I keep him talking for as long as I can purely so he doesn't have the chance to talk to anyone else. Wink