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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

are Christians short on logical abilities? and

126 replies

mummyonvalium · 18/09/2011 22:00

Do atheists have a superior logic?

I am not prone to thinking that there are fairies at the bottom of the garden. However, I believe in God because:-
a) I believe that the universe is too complex for there to be nothing else to it other than a complete void of nothingness.

b) human beings are really complex creatures and I struggle to believe that we just "evolved" this way.

I understand the scientific view point really well - that you should only believe what you know to be true for a fact, so I am not looking to be reminded of this. But the above feelings always bring me back to essentially what is a Christian faith.

Do atheists ever look at the world around them and question it, the same way a person who has faith does? How would the atheist respond to the feelings I have, that actually there is just something so much bigger than us, that is actually almost incomprehensible?

I am reasonably logical and have a first class hons from a mid-range uni. I know one person who is a Christian who has a PHD in Maths and loads of other really bright, interesting Christians. We are obviously not all thick or short on logical abilities. Why do atheists think bright and erudite people believe in God and choose to be a Christian?

Discuss.

OP posts:
Salmotrutta · 18/09/2011 22:22

Did you spot the irony of my "Good God"?

NotADudeExactly · 18/09/2011 22:23

Forgot to add: the fact of evolution is really not even a pro or contra to religion according to most religious believers. The Catholic church accepts evolution. So do pretty much all major religious institutions except for some literalists. And even some of them will say that what their scriptures say is literally true but in a metaphorical sense.

Salmotrutta · 18/09/2011 22:24

That should, of course, say - "Atheism versus Christianity/[insert faith of choice debates never end well"!!

OuchPassVodka · 18/09/2011 22:25

humans are too complicated to have evolved Hmm So we haven't evolved as a species during history then? We haven't developed skills and qualities that would be completely unfathonable to our ancestors? Or lost qualities that they depended on as they are no longer relevant?

GalaxyWeaver · 18/09/2011 22:25

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

OuchPassVodka · 18/09/2011 22:27

Grin CaymansBound.

Anomaly · 18/09/2011 22:28

I don't think many people with faith do question the world a great deal. You answer your questions about our existence with a Christian faith but that is one of many faiths. Why is it that your answer is Christian? Why not Islam or Judaism? Did you do any research before deciding that Christianity was the right one?

Tyr · 18/09/2011 22:29

OP, your question is fundamentally flawed. If you are a Christian, you buy into the Christ myth which has nothing to do with logic.
I suspect you had it instilled in you as a child and have never shaken it off. Were that not the case, it is highly unlikely, as an educated adult, that you would have swallowed whole a story about a proto hippy, born to a virgin and an angel who rose from the dead, appeared to his pals then flew off into the sky where he awaits his opportunity to return.
Atheists do ask questions. The difference is that, pending a logical explanation for something, they do not resort to the most implausible and illogical of all.
Discuss that with yourself, eh?

Flowerista · 18/09/2011 22:35

Downton Abbey was fantastic tonight.

IsItMeOr · 18/09/2011 22:37

I agree Anomaly - my personal experience is that I realised I was atheist as a result of my questioning. My "born-again" moment was when I realised that the obvious - to me - answer to your question about which religion is the right one is that so many of us are picking and choosing the bits we like from the various religions that we might as well just be openly and honestly deciding for ourselves.

Finding out about Humanism helped to fill in some of the gaps about my having been brainwashed brought up to believe that Christian people are somehow more good than non-Christian ones.

Cocoflower · 18/09/2011 22:37

I don't think logic or intelligence is the sole property of the Atheists or the religious.

I know highly intelligent religious people and incredibly stupid atheists; and vice versa.

It is ridiculous to divide people into camps because neither group is homogenous.

friggFRIGG · 18/09/2011 22:38

Yes.

LongWayRound · 18/09/2011 22:40

Agreed that "that actually there is just something so much bigger than us, that is actually almost incomprehensible" - but I'd say that whatever it is that drives the universe is a lot more powerful than the god(s) of any of the religions I have yet encountered, who are actually very human. So since I realise that I am incapable, with my limited human intelligence, of understanding life, the universe and everything, I prefer to leave the question open. It doesn't worry me that I don't know the answers, and I just don't see the point of "faith".

IsItMeOr · 18/09/2011 22:40

Oh, and OP, yes, of course many atheists share the common human concerns of searching for meaning in our existence, the sense of our insignificance in an infinite universe and the mind-boggling unlikeliness of our finding ourselves here. It just doesn't take us to the same place as it does you.

I also have a first class honours degree from a good university. Hope that helps.

CaymansBound · 18/09/2011 22:41

Hassled Bwah ha ha.

That just cheered me up no end.

Surely it depends on how long one's nose (where it ends) is as opposed to where it begins? But what would I know. I never even got to sit the exam!

eekamouse2 · 18/09/2011 22:42

My considered and educated response is that all religion is a load of bollocks, and Islam is bollocks with extra bollocks on top.

jade80 · 18/09/2011 22:48

Do you have a reason for that or have you just plucked Islam from the air?

ohnoshedittant · 18/09/2011 22:49

'Why do atheists think bright and erudite people believe in God and choose to be a Christian?'

I'm an atheist and this has always puzzled me....I've got no answer though!

'Do atheists ever look at the world around them and question it, the same way a person who has faith does?'

The main thing that bothers me about dying is not being around when science is able to explain things in more detail. So I do look at the world and question it, but always think one day we will understand it based on a logical, scientific viewpoint, not that our current inability to explain it must equal the exisitence of 'god' or any higher being.

vincettenoir · 18/09/2011 23:02

First of all athiests' don't believe that the universe is a void of nothingness. And evolution is extremely complex, complex enough for humans to have evolved. Remember it's been happening since earth began. With regards to your question there are a thousand reasons why someone might be a Christian: perhaps they were brought up in that tradition; the comfort of the afterlife; the solidarity of the church community. It's no mystery to athiests why people believe in God.

LRDTheFeministDragon · 18/09/2011 23:03

Yes. Especially that Thomas Aquinas, he was right thick.

eekamouse2 · 18/09/2011 23:04
  1. They treat women like shit (Sharia law, the Burkha, I could go on all night)
  1. They're cruel to animals (halal slaughter practices)
  1. They're cruel to people (stoning, amputations in 2011, ffs!)

Islam is just an utterly barbaric and hateful "religion". What other religion decrees that if you decide not to follow it, you can be executed?

NotADudeExactly · 18/09/2011 23:06

'Why do atheists think bright and erudite people believe in God and choose to be a Christian?'

Since we're on the subject of logic: now this actually is flawed logic. Because ...

a) It's a classical case of appeal to authority. Which doesn't make anything any more true or false at all - hence it being considered a logical fallacy and

b) It's not even strictly speaking true. Yes, some bright people are christians. Some bright people are also Muslims. However, there is a general negative correlation between education level and religiosity. More controversially, perhaps, some research has suggested a possible negative correlation between IQ and religiosity.

I do not wish to take any personal stance on this issue and/or make an argument in this direction. My point is merely that the reasoning behind this is fatally flawed.

jade80 · 18/09/2011 23:11

Hmm, interesting as I agree with a lot of what you say but think the acceptability of some of those things is down to culture more than religion. Stonings are more linked to country than religion, Islam exists in the UK without stonings. I agree re. Halal although some cite evidence that the sudden drop in blood pressure means suffering is non-existent. I've not researched it enough myself to have a strong view on it. I do feel uncomfortable that schools/airlines etc. sometimes offer only Halal meat rather than Halal meat as an option with 'normal' meat as the standard (apparently cheaper than offering both?) The Burkha, again I know my views but wonder whether I would feel differently brough up under Islam? I think many religions have unsavory aspects, even if not in the current day then at some point in their past.

NotADudeExactly · 18/09/2011 23:12

And, eekamouse:

The only reason why this seems worse in islam than in christianity these days is because - the usual American wingnuts excluded - christians tend to be a lot less strict about adhering to their scriptures.

Head covering, stoning etc. is all in the bible. In fact, the quran is much nicer to women than the bible is. For example, it actually allows women property. And it insists that a marriage is not valid unless she agrees to it. Whereas biblical law mandates that a rape victim must marry her rapist in some cases, i.e. if she is not sufficiently guilty to be stoned for being raped.

eekamouse2 · 18/09/2011 23:13

The big difference, Not a Dude, is that we've moved on in the last 2000 years but Muslims haven't.