To never, ever, ever be under same roof as SIL again. Ever.

[tittybangbang]

Yes, another SIL thread. Sorry. Please humour me. Please, at least one person read it and respond!

The letter I wanted to send db last week - knew I never would, but boy, did it feel good to get it all out!:

(Letter written after excruciating evening at my mums. We only ever see SIL at my mums when both families go round for a meal but this does happen at least once a month. Sometimes more often)

"I spoke to mum last night. Unsurprisingly she agreed with me that yesterday afternoon was pretty horrendous.

All three of my children behaved horribly yesterday. I'm sorry for that. I?ve got to tell you that what made it particularly distressing for me was that it was witnessed by SIL. I came home in tears with an ache in my chest of humiliation.

I suspect some of the behaviour was a response to them knowing that Aunty SIL has a strong antipathy towards them, and they were acting out in front of her because of this.

SIL must be aware that people, kids too - NOTICE when someone doesn?t like them. Not sure if she?s aware that that not making eye contact, never showing any interest in someone, or any warmth towards them, is generally perceived as hostile when it?s directed towards adults and children who happen to be part of your extended family and who you meet with regularly. And particularly when it's directed towards someone who has shown love and care for her children, and has always been friendly and interested.

Whatever ? it?s been very distressing to me over the years. I?ve cried over it a lot of times. I have got to the point now where there are things I can?t forget or forgive: SIL seeing me at mums for the first time after dc2?s birth, and not finding it in herself to even acknowledge that I?d had a baby. Not looking at him or commenting on him. Turning her face away when the rest of us were looking at him. Cringing when dc3 came near and pulling her dress away with a look of disgust in case he brushed against her.

She has never made a single attempt to engage my children in any sort of meaningful conversation. Never asked them a question. Never given them a spontaneous hug or taken an interest in anything that they?ve done. Never commented kindly on their personalities or their appearance. She just pretends they don't exist, to the point of not even looking at them even when they're in the same room as her.

Last week she made comments about why your dc shouldn?t have to share a classroom with children with special needs, specifically a child with aspergers (who she described as a 'disgusting little shit'). And dropped a comment into the conversation along the lines that the only saving grace as far as dc3 goes, is that, unlike her ?friend? whose child also has aspergers, I?m at least I?m not trying to make out that my autistic son is bright.

How could you possibly explain this degree of unkindness in a grown woman?

DD is 12 now, and she's beside herself with anger about how SIL behaves towards her. That's why when you come round with SIL you only now ever see dd's back as she walks out the door. She cried last time SIL came to our house because she felt so angry and upset. And over what? She's never said or done anything to SIL to upset her. She's always been polite to her. She's brilliant with your children - really loving and attentive. She can't understand why SIL appears to hate her, and neither can I.

And I don't want to have to think about it any more or deal with the stropping and crying from dd after you've gone.

Anyway ? what I want to say to you, and what I want you to communicate to SIL, is that I don?t want to see her again or want her to see my children. So future invitations - birthdays, Christmas, the usual family barbecues, I don't want her to come, all though of course you and the kids are still welcome. Actually I think she'll be relieved. Sorry if this is hard for you - I know it's going to upset you and put you in an awful position, but I think it's time you shared some of the responsibility for her behaviour and attitude. After all - in all these years you've stood by and watched her do it and pretended not to notice.

So there is is. Sorry."

Love dsis

If you can bear it - some history, have posted on this issue before....

here

I haven't read the whole thread but I would never ever send a letter with smth like that. What is written can't be unsaid and can be misinterpreted. And used against you. What is said/discussed can be forgotten (everyone needs to let out steam sometimes) and in fact a relationship can improve. I think you might fall out with your brother over that, depending which side he is on. Sorry if not helpful.

My point being I'd rather have a conversation in a friendly manner.

You might not want to confront your SIL, OP, but why can't you have a conversation with your brother, face-to-face?

I also have to ask... why would you keep presenting your children to somebody who isn't interested in them so that they keep facing that rejection? It doesn't matter why SIL is behaving this way, she is, and she's not going to change obviously. You can only change what you do.

I don't understand the bit about playing up in front of people who don't like you/them, it doesn't make any sense to me. Surely your children would behave in the same polite/disinterested way and not try to ingratiate themselves with your SIL or try to get her attention by misbehaving? I think you need to have a conversation with your daughter and be straight with her that SIL is not fond of children and that's all there is to it and that your daughter doesn't have to see her again.

It is terribly sad. I think that you can legitimately say to your brother and your mother that it's better that you and your children and SIL are not in the same place at the same time, that will take the stress off you all.

I wouldn't bother corresponding with SIL, speak to your brother - no need for a confrontation, just a conversation.

I have a horrid SIL, not quite as bad as yours though
I choose not to see her, but I laugh about it to the family. "Ah no, I'll not be putting myself through that, but thanks for the invite!" Luckily they know what I mean.
Anything difficult and we just take the piss out of her behind her back. It's childish but it works for us.

I also have to ask... why would you keep presenting your children to somebody who isn't interested in them so that they keep facing that rejection?"

Well - this is the issue really. Choices are: stop seeing db and nieces and nephews in order to avoid SIL. Or make it clear to SIL that she's not welcome when I invite db and his their dc's over to the house. Also to phone my mum and make sure I never visit her at the same time as SIL.

I won't send the letter. I think those of you who've advised against are right, and actually I'd already decided not to send it. Before I wrote it really. I just wanted to let off some steam.

Can't cope with confronting her. I don't think it would do any good at all. I think she'd deny everything and I wouldn't get anywhere. I suspect db would deny everything as well, because when my mum mentioned to him how offended she was by the way SIL treats me, and the fact that in 15 years they've never invited us around to their house despite regular invites to our place for birthdays, Christmas, barbecues etc, db turned on her and was quite nasty. Denied everything and called my mum 'disingenuous'. Not sure what he meant. She was so shocked at his manner she just dropped the conversation immediately. I think he's convinced himself it's just a personality clash between me and SIL, and is so unable to justify how she is with my dc's that he pretends to himself it's not happening.

Have to say - I love db very much. He is a lovely person in so many ways. He gets on great with dh and they go out for drinks together without me. He is fantastic with my dc's and they love him. I understand why he doesn't do anything about SIL - I don't think there's anything he can do. There's nothing he could say to her that would make her behave any different. I honestly think she can't help herself. It's almost compulsive nastiness.

Talk to him then, Titty, really. He'd much prefer that than for your to dodge the issue, just tell him from the heart how you feel. There's nothing that would stop him bringing his children to see you without the SIL coming. Your children have a right to see their uncle - and their cousins - and he may just be unaware of how to tackle it or unaware that it's a problem to the extent that it is.

Dig deep and find some courage from somewhere, he's YOUR brother and she just doesn't matter in that respect, she's nothing to do with your sibling relationship. Blood's thicker than water. Make an arrangement, just you and your brother to talk this through. You can do this.

... and rope your DH in too, if you think that will help the message to sink in.

I don't much like my SIL, I'd never treat her badly but we're just different. I'd never let my feelings impact on the way the family children are treated.

Ok if you don't feel able to confront her, or stop contact, fair enough. In that case, I think you need to handle the situation by making it about her iyswim. It would also help to reinforce the message to your children that it's not about them

So for instance, she pulls away from your youngest child, clearly say 'come here xxxx, aunty fuckwit isn't keen on being touched'

'aunty fuckwit didn't hear your question, did you aunty fuckwit?'

Hey, if passive aggressive works for her, turn it around and use it as a Force For Good

I really dislike that phrase, "passive aggressive". What does it actually mean anyway? If someone has something to say then say it, surely - or don't - but I've never seen it written in anyway that doesn't sound silly and really quite obvious.

"Talk to him then, Titty, really. He'd much prefer that than for your to dodge the issue, just tell him from the heart how you feel"

I know I should. I just hate the thought of having to do it.

Exactly, you would think that if something needed to be said, it should be said.

But some people won't, they prefer to convey it in sulks, or 'no I'm fine'-s, or frosty silences followed by the 'ignoring you? Not at all, you're imagining it'-s

That "disingenuous" comment is interesting. I might be completely wrong, but to me it indicates

1. That your brother is well aware of the way his wife acts towards you and your family.

1. That he in some way feels it is justified.

1. That he believes that your mother also knows the reason and should be supportive of his wife's attitude.

Very odd. Since your mother appears to be unaware of the reasons, it makes me wonder what your sil has been saying to your brother about you.

However, when all is said and done you cannot expect your brother to take your side completely. Even if his wife is wrong. I think you are just going to have to do your best to limit your children's exposure to her and go on biting you lip. It is very sad for you all though.

Titty... Reverse the situation... how would you feel if your brother had something he desperately wanted to speak to you about and couldn't pluck up the courage... would you think he was daft and that he should know that he can talk to you about anything?

The imagining is always worse than the reality... it will be huge weight off your mind when you've talked with him and you can change the future relationships, ALL of them.

In your shoes, I wouldn't send the letter. I would let things lie - but resolving never to accept such spite again. Call her on it when she is nasty, ask her if she is okay when her behaviour is unacceptable. She won't like it, but it puts you in a stronger position.

Talk to your DC about it, don't make them behave respectfully to someone who clearly doesn't deserve it.

My mother behaves like this all the time - I'm the only one who confronts her about it (am never agressive). It means that I don't hate her, don't waste emotional energy, don't need to think about her spite. Life is far too short.

Hmm, if you talk to your brother, he might be majorly in denial and think it's you that has the problem. I say this from experience....not saying this will happen, you know your bro, but if it does then things will be worse. He could think you're imagining it or are jealous of her. Even if it's obvious, he might be wearing rose tinted goggles. Can you just keep it between you and your mum and work round it?

Oakmaiden - yes, that's a good analysis.

Lyingwitch, I will try to screw my courage to the sticking post and talk to him.

And report back to mumsnet when I've done it.

"Can you just keep it between you and your mum and work round it?"

Has gone beyond me and mum. Dsis (who lives with my mum) can't sit in the same room as SIL as she's so offended by her behaviour to my kids. DH thinks SIL is weird. DD is ready to kick her arse.

OMG - I'm having the horrors again thinking about last week. And all the other horrible family gatherings stretching back over the last decade ....

She sounds like a nasty piece of work, I know some people have cited MH issues, but face it some people are just plain nasty. Sounds a little like my half sister who now I don't talk to who resented me the day I was born. Instead of sending a letter to your db, I would send it to your SIL, and have no qualms about it, surely he knows how she is like. She deserves to know what a nasty cowbag she is, nobody else will tell her.

She sounds exactly like my SIL. Turns out she has mild aspergers.

When I first met her, her behaviour manifested itself as cold, closed and judging.

In fact she just didn't know how to read social cues and so what I thought was ignoring and judging of my children was just an inability or unawareness that anyone needed to be engaged with. It wasn't judging. It was complete disinterest.

Of course my lovely DB knew this and would 'parent' her in a social situation - which would drive us mad because we would think he was condoning her behaviour.

She has said and done some spectacularly rude things but we would never have a big family row over it out of respect for my mum - imagine how heartbreaking it must be to see your lovely child in a difficult and challenging marriage. Why cause more anguish by stirring things up? DB isn't going to divorce her so we have to learn to live with it - and respect his choice.

As the years have gone by we have learnt to accept SIL for who she is - and she in turn has mellowed and let down her guard a bit.

It's definitely not all sunshine and roses but I have learned to try and understand where she is coming from and the DC adore their uncle and cousins and largely just ignore her.

Which actually suits everybody - most of all her.

Interesting post Merrylegs.

Wish I could think my SIL had Aspergers. Would make it easier to understand her behaviour. Problem is that she's selectively unpleasant. I've seen her being very nice to my DH's family.

I think you are in a lose:lose situation. If you confront his and do send a letter or speak to your brother then it will inevitably end in tears and you will be the villain. If you don't say anything then you and your children suffer.

I don't think there is any way of dealing with this that will end well if I am honest :(

I am a very positive person as well I hasten to add!

She sounds horrid, but i always wonder with these situations how your brother can be oblivious to it? The 'disingenuous' comment implies he thinks both you and your mum know full well why SiL is the way she is, and that you either had a part to play in it, or brought it on by some behaviour.

Perhaps you could ask him what they think has happened.

Well if you have Dsis on side too it's easier. Maybe focus on the outcome you would ideally like and think through whether it's poss to achieve through your course of action. Can you really see you brother talking SIL round if you let him know how everyone feels? Or might he confide in you and just not say anything to her? Or do you think it will mean the family stays apart in future?

titty, if she is the youngest of 5, then she is def not my sister, though I was convinced she was - even some of your scenarios are familiar!

Eg she has never acknowledged the birth of any of my 4 dc. She had never even seen ds1 till ds2 Christening. Mum invited her (she has refused to talk to me since 1998 ). So in the church I say to ds2, ds2, this is your aunty XXX, she totally blanks him, looks at me coldly and say "we've met, and XXX will do). Then later at mum's house, I'm sat with new little ds2 on my knee and I look up to see her looking down on is with a look of total revulsion on her face. Other than that exchange she didn't say a word to me. At my own son's christening.

I have had very little contact with her since 1998. I have written a couple of times apologising for I genuinely don't know what. She now has a dd, and it makes me sad to think my dc have a cousin they have never met.

She has always been very very difficult, and even as youngish kids, my mum jumped through hoops to keep her happy (at my expense) eg she would promise me something. Then my sister would find out and kick up a fuss, so my mum would give it to her instead and I'd not get it.

Point of all this is sounds like your db is maybe like my mum. For whatever reason scared to confront or challenge the bad behaviour. I sadly agree with Saggy - db is aware of her behaviour but like my mum, is unable or unwilling to challenge it. I would say she cannot or will not change.

So before you talk to him, you need to decide how best you will manage the situation. If she really is like my sister, she will cut you off (and probably therefore your db too) without a 2nd thought or backward glance. I half think my sister is perfectly capable of convincing herself I/we don't exist.

What do you want? You can't (unfortunately) wish her away. I think if you challenge her, you may well lose your brother. I really think best option is to have less contact and ignore, and teach your kids to ignore.

And yes, I am sure there is some sort of real disorder there.

Sorry so long. Good luck. It's a toxic relationship which you can't easily resolve without losing your brother, so think very carefully before you act.