To never, ever, ever be under same roof as SIL again. Ever.

[tittybangbang]

Yes, another SIL thread. Sorry. Please humour me. Please, at least one person read it and respond!

The letter I wanted to send db last week - knew I never would, but boy, did it feel good to get it all out!:

(Letter written after excruciating evening at my mums. We only ever see SIL at my mums when both families go round for a meal but this does happen at least once a month. Sometimes more often)

"I spoke to mum last night. Unsurprisingly she agreed with me that yesterday afternoon was pretty horrendous.

All three of my children behaved horribly yesterday. I'm sorry for that. I?ve got to tell you that what made it particularly distressing for me was that it was witnessed by SIL. I came home in tears with an ache in my chest of humiliation.

I suspect some of the behaviour was a response to them knowing that Aunty SIL has a strong antipathy towards them, and they were acting out in front of her because of this.

SIL must be aware that people, kids too - NOTICE when someone doesn?t like them. Not sure if she?s aware that that not making eye contact, never showing any interest in someone, or any warmth towards them, is generally perceived as hostile when it?s directed towards adults and children who happen to be part of your extended family and who you meet with regularly. And particularly when it's directed towards someone who has shown love and care for her children, and has always been friendly and interested.

Whatever ? it?s been very distressing to me over the years. I?ve cried over it a lot of times. I have got to the point now where there are things I can?t forget or forgive: SIL seeing me at mums for the first time after dc2?s birth, and not finding it in herself to even acknowledge that I?d had a baby. Not looking at him or commenting on him. Turning her face away when the rest of us were looking at him. Cringing when dc3 came near and pulling her dress away with a look of disgust in case he brushed against her.

She has never made a single attempt to engage my children in any sort of meaningful conversation. Never asked them a question. Never given them a spontaneous hug or taken an interest in anything that they?ve done. Never commented kindly on their personalities or their appearance. She just pretends they don't exist, to the point of not even looking at them even when they're in the same room as her.

Last week she made comments about why your dc shouldn?t have to share a classroom with children with special needs, specifically a child with aspergers (who she described as a 'disgusting little shit'). And dropped a comment into the conversation along the lines that the only saving grace as far as dc3 goes, is that, unlike her ?friend? whose child also has aspergers, I?m at least I?m not trying to make out that my autistic son is bright.

How could you possibly explain this degree of unkindness in a grown woman?

DD is 12 now, and she's beside herself with anger about how SIL behaves towards her. That's why when you come round with SIL you only now ever see dd's back as she walks out the door. She cried last time SIL came to our house because she felt so angry and upset. And over what? She's never said or done anything to SIL to upset her. She's always been polite to her. She's brilliant with your children - really loving and attentive. She can't understand why SIL appears to hate her, and neither can I.

And I don't want to have to think about it any more or deal with the stropping and crying from dd after you've gone.

Anyway ? what I want to say to you, and what I want you to communicate to SIL, is that I don?t want to see her again or want her to see my children. So future invitations - birthdays, Christmas, the usual family barbecues, I don't want her to come, all though of course you and the kids are still welcome. Actually I think she'll be relieved. Sorry if this is hard for you - I know it's going to upset you and put you in an awful position, but I think it's time you shared some of the responsibility for her behaviour and attitude. After all - in all these years you've stood by and watched her do it and pretended not to notice.

So there is is. Sorry."

Love dsis

If you can bear it - some history, have posted on this issue before....

here

"so what, she doesnt like kids, not everyone has to worship at the altar of Planet Children".

No - but it's just as inexcusable to ignore them because you don't like them as it would be to treat someone's parents like this because you don't like old people.

Children are human beings and they deserve the basic respect of having their presence acknowledged at a family gathering don't you think?

And I think being as rude as this woman has is quite different to "worshipping at the altar of children." Quite different and quite toxic.

I think one would have to be of the same bizarre mental disposition not be at all affected by such behaviour.

Have you ever talked to your brother about this? I think you should really. I think you should also talk to her about upsetting your daughter and say that if she is under your roof at the very least she can do is acknowledge them, be polite and not make snide comments. My husband set some basic ground rules with my passive - agressive MIL and it helped to a certain extent (although you can't change the personality).

Don't send it. It cannot be unread by your DB and will probably be used against you.

How would you feel if the rest of the family were to read it at her invitation?

Thanks for all the responses guys.

Will read them through again later for a bit of moral support.

Got to pick kids up from school.

Hi, I too had a SIL with an attitude and who never had anything nice to say about anyone or anything. I cut her out of my life completely 5 years ago now and I have never looked back. The only sad part is that I have not seen my nephew since and he has no idea who i am. I still allow my husband and children to go to their place as he is a twin to her husband and being so they are close. I also allow my children to spend a week in her company each year with my husband but without me. The difference between her and me is that i have told my children if they want to visit her or their cousin they can if they want to. I find the whole situation very sad but after 15 years I felt I could no longer tolerate the situation. She came round to my door after I had cut her off with a letter which she gave to my mother with the words (if she has anything to say tell her to say it to my face) I promptly returned the letter unopened and informed her she had nothing to say that i had not already heard. I then said I hope you have a long and happy life and left. That was the last time i ever spoke to her. I have lived happily ever since. There is no longer any dread waiting on the door bell to go. I do not have to put up with her bringing all her family, cousins included round to my house just so that they can go off and talk about me when they leave. I no longer have to hide any happy event and I can be myself. Life is so good.

What's your brother like with your kids? Does he appear to notice that his wife's behaviour is a bit odd?

I don't think I'd send the letter but I would talk to my brother. In a pleasant, casual manner. Try asking him if everything is ok, that you've noticed that sil is ignoring the kids, etc and ask him if he knows why.

Blimey, I would have taken her up on this by now. My MIL made a nasty comment to my ds (her sds) and I went hammer and tongs. Now we know precisely where we stand. If she wants to see us she see's us all and sucks it up.

I am not a very tolerant person and I also generally go off like an atomic bomb and then calm down very quickly. Frankly this woman sounds like a grade a b*tch

You have my sympathy...I have one wonderful SIL (dh's sister) and one phenomenally toxic SIL (DH's brother's wife).

They went from being semi-friendly to us (in a slightly patronising way - BIL is 8 years older than DH) to barely speaking, but sort-of politely, to totally ignoring us, in the course of 5 years.

What happened? I'm not sure initially. But I suspect that she couldn't cope with our lives going well and I know for sure that she was furious when I got pregnany with DC2 about 4 months after she announced she was expecting her PFB. Apparently she complained to my MIL about me stealing her thunder...and asked why I couldn't wait for longer to tell people ...um, because I was 16 weeks and showing?

Throughout that pregnancy she didn't once ask me how I was, not even when she saw me. Even though I made a point of phoning her to see how she was doing. We went to their baby naming party, and took a lovely present. Never got a thank you card. Received a card and present when DC2 came along 3 months later. Just a text message, nothing else, when we had DC3.

They live 2 miles away and have a child who is 3 months older than one of ours who we have literally never seen, which I find hearbreaking.

DH has tried to discuss the issue with BIL on several occasions - last time he was in floods of tears for hours after BIL informed him that they 'simply don't like us' and 'dont see the point in spending time with family when they can spend the same time with people they like, instead' DH only persisted because his parents became so upset by the whole thing (BIL & SIL would bitch about us to them) and felt we should try harder...

When FIL died suddenly, we had to spend a few days together as a family. I spent all my time cooking, feeding everyone etc, despite having a 6 week old baby. SIL didn't lift a finger, except to feed herself and BIL, even when everyone else was present. My other SIL eventually exploded, and now they don't speak to her, either (although they have told MIL they are willing to see her husband and her dcs occasionally as 'they don't mind them' ).

DH and I are very social, and have many friends dating back to childhood. They have 'fallen out' with BILs old friends (she doesn't have any long-term friends, but is a massive social climber). Oh, and she didn't speak to her own sister for 15 years.

Its taken us a long time to really internalise that it isn't us, its them but we're kind of there now. It is heartbreaking, especially as MIL still dreams of having a lovely united family, but SIL has clearly convcined her dh that he shouldn't spend time with his family. For 2 years she wouldn't even let her DS spend time with MIL, unless it was to meet her in a cafe for 30 minutes at a time - even now (he's nearly 4) he is not allowed to go to her flat and has never been left alone with her even for 5 minutes.

I still invite them to all family gatherings, and always invite their DS to my DD's birthday parties etc....but safe in the knowledge they will never accept! I do hope that one day their DS decides he'd like to meet us....

Sorry, this was meant to be a supportive message and then suddenly all this 'stuff' came spilling out ...anyway...

YADNBU. But don't send the letter.

Good luck :)

Viz FilthyDirty's: "have you ever asked her (calmly and politely ) what her problem is?"

• Or is there a way you approach your brother and ask him this question too? Particularly if you two can have a sensitive and measured conversation about your SIL's behaviour, you may be able to say that you seriously considered/are considering breaking off relations because of the upsetting effect that those meetings have on you and in particular on your family.

not had time to read all responses but_

she sounds exactly like my sister. Not joking. everything you said makes me think it's her - can you give me teeny clue to where she lives just out of interest?

I think it's too unfair to send that letter without 1st talking to either her or him.

I would def. tell her to be civil to my kids or else, and I would talk with db first to say you've reached the end of your tether, and how her behaviour affects you and your dc.

Only after you have done these 2 things should you do the above, and yes, I think you should, if she refuses to improve her behaviour. Basic courtesy is all that's required, but she and db should be told directly 1st, to have the opportunity to address issue.

Notherdaynothetdollar has been making blunt remarks on other threads, ignore!

She sounds like a sociopath.

I think its a great letter tbh, although I also wondered why it isn't addressed to her. Your mum, your brother and your children are all having a rotten time because of her behaviour, but none of you are willing to confront her? I do understand that confrontation is horrendous and difficult ... but surely as a family you cannot passively allow this to happen?

You must talk to your brother about it.

I'm in the dont send the letter camp. It will be used against you and haunt you for years. Just cut her off. Blank her. She doesn't deserve an explanation. If your DB asks you can explain, briefly that she ignores your dc and is having a negative impact on them. Then leave it at that. My SIL does the same with our DS ho has Asd web though ironically her DS has it too. She has done her best to keep me and DB apart, made him give up all his friends and isinly interested in my DPs for their money. I haven't seen thm for 2 years. I miss my old DB but not the person she has turnedhim into. I won't let them treat me or DS like it so we don't see them. Our parents see what they do and say but won't say anything as DM knows it would be the last time she saw them. But I won't expose DS to all this bullshit. It's my job to make him feel safe and loved so that does not include spending time with a fucked-up harpy. I suggest you quietly do the same op as you won't change her or her behaviour so disengage.

eaglewings said "Notherdaynothetdollar has been making blunt remarks on other threads, ignore!"

Yes, rude, insensitive and showing a staggering lack of insight, tact or understanding blunt - that's it.

Figsandwine you are more truthful than me :)

What a nasty bitch your SIL is. Speak to your brother as soon as you can. You can't be expected to put up with this vile creature in your life.

I'd try and deal with it by ignoring her behaviour without changing my own way of being. I experienced something similar awhile back and was so worked up I even had nightmares about it. However, she might want you to react and talk to your bro and initiate a rift because she'll make him take her side. He has to, as her lives with her so his hands are tied. Try and mentally take charge of things and see her as just not worth the energy. See it as juvenile, petty, small minded and don't let her sabotage your feelings. Easier said than done but you don't want to let her spoil your other relationships.

Mumsnetters read womans own! What rubbish...we all read Peoples Friend.

have you ever spoken to your brother about this? I would if I were you, rather than send a letter.

If she absolutely won't respond to you one-on-one I would be tempted to discuss her shortcomings with your DCs and give them permission to blank her themselves, in order for you all to maintain a relationship with your DB and their children.

It might be awkward (but no moreso than it already is) to exclude her, but I can't help feeling that your DNs need you and your family. Theirs can't be a very happy life and they will need wider family to support them - it sounds highly unlikely that there will be anyone else to look out for them.

eagle my irritation has built up over many threads now...

do not send the letter

it seems from the ignoring you as a student post that she would take pleasure out of upsetting you. i would go with the ignoring her option and keeping your dc away from her. your dd needs to know that some people are just down right nasty and how to deal with them with polite indifference so as they do not upset you.

"If she absolutely won't respond to you one-on-one I would be tempted to discuss her shortcomings with your DCs and give them permission to blank her themselves, in order for you all to maintain a relationship with your DB and their children"

I would NEVER confront her one to one. I'm intimidated by her. When bibbity described her as a 'sociopath' I though - yes that's the word for her. She's very, very cold. She's aware that I know she doesn't like me. But she's creepily friendly to my DH. I'm wondering if she doesn't realise that he notices the way she treats me and the children and is offended by it too.

Ernest - she's the youngest of 5 sisters. She's not related to you is she?

titty she sounds astonishingly horrendous!
Can you not talk to your DB and say something like
"Look, you know I really love seeing you and the kids, but it's so obvious that SIL has a massive issue with us and it's making me really uncomfortable - what do you think is going on there?"

I agree that sending the letter whilst being immensely satisfying and understandable will probably alienate her and your DB, and cause ongoing strife within the family. I very much doubt that I could keep my tongue still in your situation, and would have confronted her by now, but the fact that you haven't tells me that you are keen to keep things amicable despite how fucking awful she is. Talk to your DB - if he is mortally offended, then frankly he's not so much better than her and you're probably better off expressing your justified fury at her shitty behaviour and cutting them out of your life. If DB is reasonable though, then you'll prob at least have a decent conversation about why this is happening.