childcare costs

[splashymcsplash]

This is something that has been brought up time and time again.. childcare costs are very expensive, especially in London/SE.

AIBU to ask you to sign this e-petition so maybe, just maybe, something could be done about it?

Frak, why do you say child care is of lower quality in France? Just in my own experience, our local nursery (in France) is terrific, I think better than what we could have afforded in London.

You make a very good point though, that the childcare policy here is based on national priorities. I suspect that UK maintains expensive childcare and long-term maternity leave because otherwise the unemployment rates would go up.

'You have kids, you pay for them' honestly, I just don't get this attitude at all. You get years and years of free education for your kids, the government will now be paying university fees up front for your kids you are already paying loads in taxes for the benefit of other people's kids.

"For the state it doesn't make sense to pay tax credits and other benefits to people who sit at home, because they can't afford to go to work instead of subsidising their childcare, enabling them to work and pay taxes and N.I. Also, employers lose valuable members of their workforce and their experience if they're forced to give up their job for financial reasons."

I get no financial assistance. I earn no wage, receive no tax credits and cannot pay into a pension. If I am ill I get no sick pay or time off. Do we only measure what one contributes to society and economy in financial terms?

And if we are being financial, here's another radical statement, a salary to match my work experience and qualifications would pay a starting wage to two graduates out of university with heaps of student debt. Surely it's more efficient to allow them to get on the career ladder building up experience in a job relative to their degree rather than being unemployed or taking a lesser job leaving their debts unpaid.

The childcare voucher scheme has changed for new joiners. I forget exactly how but for those paying the higher tax rate, the benefits aren't as great. My DH and I are both in the scheme so 486 of the 738 we pay each month for 3 days a week childcare comes from our untaxed pay which is something.

I do think nursery childcare in London costs a lot - around £60-65 a day in the nursery my DS is at. We keep the costs lower by me only working 4 days a week and DH working at home one day whilst also caring for DS. We are both on good salaries but faced with paying the equivalent of another mortgage if DS was in full time care, we've made some changes to our working lives. DS is more than worth it and we would pay more if we had to.

Voluptua I take it your a SAHM by choice and have someone who can support your choice. Yay for you. I'm talking about those who are forced out by circumstances beyond their control.

"And if we are being financial, here's another radical statement, a salary to match my work experience and qualifications would pay a starting wage to two graduates out of university with heaps of student debt. Surely it's more efficient to allow them to get on the career ladder building up experience in a job relative to their degree rather than being unemployed or taking a lesser job leaving their debts unpaid."

Could your job be done by a new graduate without any experience? And also how would it become 2 fulltime jobs, just because a new graduate is paid half of what you are? In the meantime your experience and all training you had is lost. Your argument doesn't really make sense.

In fairness widow we don't find the childcare vouchers 'a joke'. They are useful for us. IF they push peoples incomes too low, this is where WTC/CTC are supposed to come in. (Can never remember which one is which)

WW I'm taking it at face value. The crux is that children are well looked after, if that means staying at home to do it rather than pay someone else to do it then so what.

Would people seek the same sympathy if they had do clean their house or do their garden because they couldn't afford to pay for it anymore.

Because in general French nurseries are understaffed (5:1 ratios are common), place less priority on the individual and have fewer resources, particularly in terms of outdoor play. Additionally childcare training isn't as good, there's significantly less regulation of CMs and truly professional nannies are incredibly rare.

But in price/quality terms the fact it is so much cheaper makes the good nurseries seem exceptional value. Clearly some French nurseries are outstanding and some British nurseries are appalling - there's always variation - but across the board early years provision in the UK is of better quality.

FWIW the French childcare I've come across so far has been fantastic. DD goes to the creche 3 and a half days a week (I work part time) and we pay 180? a month. The girls who work there are paid by the gvmt, on a set salary, and the parents' pay an hourly rate depending on their annual income (we're at roughly 1.60?/h while we earn a total of about 45k).
School starts at two and a half, and it's free obviously, but we will probably keep DD at the creche until she's almost four because we're so happy with it.
As for the French financial situation, well yeah, but it's no worse than the UK (or many of the other EU countries), but not to worry, the dwarf has found an answer, he's adding sugary drinks to the list of sin-taxes.

Voluptua I do my cleaning and the garden in my freetime (well, currently on maternity leave, but when back to work), and don't need anyone to look after house and garden while I'm at work. But we can't just stick the children into the cupboard whilst we're out working.

No we can't because their well being is paramount, not our high flying careers.

I always wonder why childcare (for pre-schoolers which is where it is very expensive) is always considered as a monthly outgoing.

I'm surprised that more couples don't budget and save for this before they have children - in the way that, say, they might for a new pram. If you can save a lump sum of your future childcare bills before the children come along then surely this would make it much easier?

(I realise that breakfast/after school/holiday clubs for school age children also cost money, but not at the same prohibitive level as pre-schoolers.

Widow re sticking children in a cupboard,sorry you should have made plans before getting pregnant. Not sure why the tax payer should pick up the tab for your lack of foresight.

Also slightly at the sticking kids in a cupboard comment,it's so very sad that at the end of the day children and their welfare come so far down on the list of demands in this modern day "I want" culture. The sense of entitlement is just staggering.

Clearly to some children are just a major inconvenience and the fact they come with a price tag causes obvious resentment.

MilaMae We were both working in relatively well paying jobs before I got pregnant. Also, was aware that my salary would have been used in almost its entiry to cover childcare after maternity leave. What we didn't plan for is that my husband lost his job. If he doesn't find one which pays enough to cover childcare costs we will have to give notice to the nursery. Which means that he then can't work because we don't have childcare.

How could I plan for that?

Thank you Frak, that's interesting. It's not really the case in the city where we live but it rings very true for Paris for example.

Thankyou Milamae. You put it more eloquently than I could

WW how about your husband stays at home and looks after the children?

Fwiw - I wouldn't want to stick my children in a cupboard, my daughter loves her nursery which provides loving care and a stimulating environment, and more fun and experiences than I can provide her with at home.

List cost for a full-time place at the nursery DS's been at since he was a few months old is £1200 a calendar month, including December when you only get 3 weeks. You get snacks and hot lunch in that.

We offset some by me getting childcare vouchers (saves £100 a month) and after the first 6 months I got a subsidy through work which dropped my net cost to a mere £1000 pcm.

I breathed a sigh of relief when DS got to 3 and the free hours kicked in too.

What gets me is that the free hours only cover school hours, not even a proper half-time job's worth, and only term time - do they think parents should give up work for the holidays? I think they ought to be 19-20 hours (my f/t hours are 38) and for all year round. That would help working parents immensely. If the logic is that some children are only at term-time nursery schools, then fine, they should simply give the subsidy for the number of weeks a child is actually at a school. Wouldn't be hard - they do have sign-in sheets!

In comparison, the local private school fees are £3600 a term. So effectively, anyone who wants nursery childcare is paying the same as a private school parent.

I am not in a position to comment on childminders, but I do think they sell themselves a bit short. Even the local gardeners charge £10-15 an hour!!!

It seems that my original post has been misinterpreted by some people - I did not say, nor do I think that childminders/nursery nurses should be be paid less. In some areas childminders/nurseries may be cheap but that certainly isn't the case in London. You can only dream of finding a childminder for £3/hour! Nurseries local to here charge £70-75 per day. For people on medium incomes, who don't qualify for tax credits, but who don't have much left over after paying rent etc that is a lot of money.

This is in no way to say that childcare should not be a quality provision, or that children are not important. Surely however, there is a way of providing quality childcare at less that £375 per week?

Could quality affordable childcare perhaps help the economy as more mothers would be able to return to work and pay taxes?

Voluptua - that's what will have to happen if he doesn't find a job, which means that the one who earned the higher wages is forced out of the job market and we still don't have enough income to cover the outgoings (btw no mortgage, private rent, no fancy car, and no fancy holidays either)

Errrr Widow I managed to provide my 3 dc with plenty of love and a stimulating environment.So very sad that mothers just don't seem good enough these days to look after their own children.

I also don't see why your dh can't look after your dc,he could try childminding or an evening job in Tescos to top up.Failing that you could downsize.

We juggle having only 1 very old car and a smaller house than we would have if childfree.My dp has passed up several amazing work ops and I've switched careers for a while.Yes we'll never be as well off as if we'd never have had the dc but you simply can't have your cake and eat it.

I recently contacted a childminder for afterschool care for 2 children. She wanted to charge me £4.00 each per hour + £1.00 each for pick-up (even though she lives round the corner) + extra for a snack with no discount for siblings. This amounted to well over £10.00 per hour. Whilst I agree the cost of quality childcare isn't going to be cheap, often childminders look after more than one/two children. I have seen childminders with 5 or more children in tow after school at £5.00 per child your are looking at £25 per hour. If charging this rate then they are earning well above the average wage and definitely more than me!

Spashy re London prices said establishments will be paying London prices for rent,employees travel(so will need higher wages) etc.

My dp could earn double his salary in London/SE but we'd be paying double the mortgage,it's life.Living and working in London is expensive.You could try moving and living elsewhere.

"Could quality affordable childcare perhaps help the economy as more mothers would be able to return to work and pay taxes?"

We already have quality childcare available and it is already subsidised. As a country we are skint, where would the money for even more subsidies come from?

I was a single parent when I had dd, I knew that I would be skint for years if I worked but I kept working full time because I knew it would benefit both my dd and I in the long run.

She started secondary today, next summer we will be having our first foreign holiday together ever.
I really really don't understand why people now cannot see that having children is expensive and it is not up to the government to subsidise having children just to allow people to live the lifestyle they want.