to feel short changed by feminism?

[ThroughTheRoundWindow]

So here's the thing. Back in the day the young women of the baby boom generation demanded the choice to work or care for their babies. some of them went out to work, and because their families had two incomes they could afford to spend more on their houses and on filling them with consumer goods.

But more families with more money pushed up the price of houses.

Roll on a generation and it is impossible to afford a mortgage on one moderate income. To pay for a house you both need to work. Well that isn't true, we could have either bought a ex-council house on a dodgy estate, or I could have married a much richer man. (But we couldn't bring ourselves to raise a child on an estate and I fell in love with a council employee).

Had a been born a generation earlier my husband's local government salary would have paid for our modest house in an unfashionable suburb and I could (if I had chosen) have given up work to care full time for our family. Instead I have no choice - I have to return to work and leave my baby in daycare.

Without feminism I could have done what comes most naturally to me and been a homemaker. Feminism stole that option from me. Now I have to leave my baby to be raised by a stranger and go out to work in a job I care nothing for and get nothing (except a salary) from.

Ok, a little maudlin from too much beer, but someone explain to me why I am genuinely unreasonable to feel this way?

I get up before I go to bed every day, clean the skirting boards with a toothbrush and then lick off stray bits of dust with my tounge.

Do I win?

Scottishmummy; - my dc have grown up seeing me do most of the domestic chores - I'm not sure how I could have avoided that tbh being a Sahm - but like I said, I really like housework, so it's not like they see me kicking the Hoover and giving the sink dirty looks - they're nice well adjusted kids.

L.O.L portofino - you know what they say - 'the way to a man's heart is through his stomach'

Yes but do you get multiple orgasms as a reward every day?

Sorry that was to flippinada

HereBe - you make me laugh so much.

No, but I do have a warm glow of martyrish satisfaction HereBeBollox

Does that count?

carmina, I hope you give your DC a go on the boil wash and skirting board wiping every so often. You won't be doing them any favours if you do it all yourself.

Lol flippinada -

my day of martyring is over -

night night.

Xposts NG - yep, they do their bit ( they keep their rooms clean and help out around the house )

g'night

Hmm... glow of martyrish satisfaction vs multiple orgasms.

Sorry flippinada, so far, carmina's in the lead...

aaaand, back to the point.

sorry to bring a note of levity, but chrissasmissas has raised something.

you don't have to feel guilty about wanting to be a sahm. BUT nor can you think it's some kind of 'right'. There has NEVER been a historical period when it was 'the norm' for women to stay at home & care for the kids without doing some other kind of paid work as well. even when women didn't work outside the home, they still did a LOT of work at home, e.g. cottage gardens where produce was sold at market, various skilled crafts (spinning, weaving etc). So the children were pretty much left to fend for themselves whilst mum ran the house AND earnt some money.

having a sahp can be great for some families, but for the majority, it is just not an economic reality.

as we said earlier, the ideal of a sahm was a political campaign launched by the govt to get women out of paid jobs so that men could have them.

it was not based on the best interests of the women or children.

here's one of the hard truths of life, which the media happily glosses over.

no-body owes you anything.

not your partner, or the govt, or the housing market, or even your parents. if you want something in life you have to earn it. if you want to be a sahm, you either need to marry someone who is able to provide for you, or you need to earn enough money to take a career break. expecting that, AND a house?

you are born with nothing, and you die with nothing. anything you have in between is up to you.

I know that's harsh, but it's true. Doesn't matter how many other people around you have loads of lovely things, that gives you no right to anything yourself, unless you earn it.

sorry, will take a deep breath & go for a shower

I can sorta see where you're coming from

I would love nothing more to stay at home have a few more kids get them to school age then go off to work!

But people will judge me for it, a judgement that wasn't there 50,60 years ago.

Surely one of the major events of the fifties and sixties was a huge expansion in middle class jobs. This meant that a much larger proportion of the population were middle class, but there was a not big expansion in building of middle class houses.

So many middle class people have to live in housing that was typically working class. I live in a former labourer's cottage, because despite DH until recently having a middle class job, we are still in the bottom 80% of the population in terms of income, so we live in the bottom 80% of housing.

Of course we don't live in the same kind of house as somebody who had a similar job to DH in the fifties, because they would have been in the top 20% and we are not.

It has nothing to do with feminism.

historically,the women in my family have always worked.historically most women (all bar the richest) worked

sahm is a bit of a post war prosperous affectation and not borne out by the lives most women lived,and do live. children worked and mums worked.compulsory schooling and various factory acts were passed to limit ages of children who worked in factories etc

this alleged halcyon days of housewife up to elbows in flour watching the kids is a bit of a misnomer.

and certainly growing up in a scheme, everyone's mum worked,because they had to.quite simply one ordinary wage was not enough.then as is now

I have done my family tree back generations. I know exactly what my female ancestors were doing - and spending quality time with the dcs it wasn't. They were seamstresses, laundresses, glove makers, agricultural labourers, charwomen etc etc.

I know where they lived too. They brought up huge families in little cottages in those incredibly picturesque villages in the Cotswolds and the vale of Evesham. Those cottages that middle class families today have as 2nd homes. I wish one of them had got passed down - but of course they were probably only renting.

Members of my grandmothers generation had children out of wedlock, which they gave away for adoption, or just left with a family that wanted a child. The hurt and pain this caused still carries on til this day. When my maternal great grandmother died, my ggf put the 3 kids in a home and buggered off. My gm was rescued by an aunt - presumably as she was older and could be of some use. The boys were left there. My nan did her nursing training and worked til retirement - at least part time. She worked night for years to fit round the family.

Utopia! Feck off was it!

And even when I was born, I lived in a household - 3 bed council house - with my parents, my grandparents, my 3 younger aunts and at one point with my sister and cousin too. I had a lovely childhood mostly, so this isn;t meant to be competitive sadding, but peoples expectations were entirely different in those days.

Yes, women have always worked, - but when I was growing up (in the 70's) it was rare for a woman to work full-time if she had children under 5. Possibly, middle-class career women went back to work when their baby was 6 months old - but not your avearage woman - not where I lived anyway ( working class London )

growing up in a scheme,vast majority mums worked.childcare was neighbours/aunties/mums pals.worked because they had too,one wage want enough

I've only just found this thread so haven't read it all, sorry.

Where does feminism come into this?

I resent the implication that women in the 70s had it easier or had more choice.

My children were born in the 70s & early 80s.

Yes, I chose to stay at home with my children till they started school, but we just had to make do with less. And less meant no washing machine, no freezer, no microwave, no colour tv, old carpets, old curtains, old beds, no matching anything, old clothes etc etc etc.

Interest rates were at 15% in the early 80s. No, we didn't have it easier - we just made do with a lot less.

Is it feminism that makes you want more expensive consumer goods these days?

Running a home ( this is purely personal to me and I enjoy doing it - dh attends to the garden and whatever DIY jobs that need doing ( as and when )

1) Keep it clean! - the kitchen and bathroom should be spotless. The living areas should be clean and tidy but homely and inviting. Bedrooms - sheets washed daily. Hallway kept uncluttered and skirting kept clean. First impressions count.

2) finances - all bills to be paid on time, ( if possible )

3) childrens uniforms and school bags sorted out the night before - mornings should be stress free and enjoyable. Make sure you have time in the evenings to help dc with homework

4) food. Nutritious food available and a good meal plan in place.

5) get children to after school activities on time.

that's off the top of my head -

P.M.S.L.

Wow! It has just taken me over an hour to read through all the responses to this thread. I'm sorry for disappearing from the conversation - didn't have chance to MN yesterday and didn't expect quite so many heated responses!

Ok, I feel thoroughly slapped around the chops by all the bright women on here! Of course feminism has given us all and enormous amount. I would never refute that or wish to turn the clock back. I think my original point was really about feeling let down that I'd been told I had a choice and then found out that this wasn't the case. I don't think I at any time said that I wished feminism hadn't happened, just that I felt let down by its promises and that it may even have contributed to failure of those promises.

However, after reading all the above I accept that double incomes are unlikely to be a major factor in the housing boom and so my initial premise was incorrect.

I also accept the point that most women have always worked. However, this was not the case in my family. My grandmother was from working class stock but married a skilled worker and didn't work herself. My mother didn't return to work until my younger brother was 8. I don't think they were particularly unusual. Maybe that is why I bought into the "fantasy" of the SAHM.

I would like to defend myself to those who seem to imply I am some range-rover driving leafy-suburb yummy mummy who just wants it all and will stamp my feet until I get it - that really, really isn't the case. DH are thrifty to the point of being a joke to all our friends. I won't waste space on describing our lifestyle, but take it as read that we couldn't just cut back a bit and make it on one income, and that isn't because our house is expensive for this city. It isn't. Frankly the council house wasn't that much cheaper but was a lot further from any amenities and a lot closer to an anti-social behaviour hot spot. I resent the implication that that decision makes me grabby and bourgeois.

Ok, now I've defended myself a bit I might just return to lurking about. A really interesting debate though guys, worth making a controversial point for?

Carmina are you for real?

Definitely worth a debate, Window.

Not having a go at you OP, but you do have a choice.

You can stay at home, you don't have to go out to work. I loved it BUT we couldn't afford to go out, we couldn't afford new clothes, and so on ad infinitum.

If you want to buy your own house, if you want it full of lovely matching bits & pieces, you'll probably have to choose to get a job. That's it really. But it is your choice to make.

op,feminism hasnt let you down.its economics.quite simply one wage isnt enough

you need to lose the pained martyred mummy i leave my baby to be raised by a stranger - no you dont.you pay a responsible adult to watch your baby.the raising bit, well thats you.but im telling you if you mope about with the strangers raised my baby attitude you'll get it back in spadefuls.there are enough precious moments mamas berating working mums without a self inflicted kick

so do stop being maudlin
pull yourself together