to consider private school even if...

[stella1w]

... it means no holidays, treats, nice clothes etc etc ever for the next 18 years?

My parents scrimped and saved to put me and my sister through private school even though they had a very low income.

I also have a low income but feel I should make all sacrifices necessary.. on the other hand, I don't think putting myself under severe financial stress during the recession would make me such a good parent either.

Feeling guilty either way..

Bright spot is local infant school just got "outstanding" ofsted report, though the juniors was only "satisfactory"

Part of it is down to money. Private schools can afford far smaller class sizes and more resources than the state system.

"Private schools generally get great results, so why hasn't any government modeled the state system on the practice of private schools?"

The reality is plenty of the best jobs in most sectors (except perhaps local authorities and there pay is capped below the prime minster etc I think now) are for the privately educated because the education is better. Obviously lots of private pupils are not clever and wouldn't even then get jobs where you need brains like being a surgeon or judge, top accountant etc but plenty of them are.

A lot of jobs require:
(a) obviously the best exam results you can get
(b) social skills, ability to wear the right clothes for that job, get on with the clients, customers etc you will be meeting in that business
(c) being understood, speaking coherently and knowing where to put apostrophes, excellent written English, having an accent those with whom you will deal will understand
(d) confidence and to an extent reasonable looks/charm
(e) things in common with those with whom you will work

The biggest hurdle for many people is not the fact they are female but they don't have those things.

So how could the state system achieve them?

Obviously number 1 is getting as many A* as the private system
That might mean teachers working to 6pm and Saturday school and more homework perhaps supervised at school

Much longer school days with a wealth of clubs on offer which again involves teachers being prepared to stay until 6pm at least.

More selection and teaching in one ability groups.

Much more silent classrooms of teenagers. Some state schools manage this but not all.

Ability to exclude more easily with disruptive children going to the units they do to now but perhaps in greater numbers.

Making chidlren speak better. If my mother int he 1940s with classrooms of 40 children in a rough area could teach the children of the poor correct English state schools can now. Not necessarily just accent although loads of people change their accent to get on in life, but just basics - no "you was" I aint. Haitch etc. Teachers to tell children who they speak at home is not how they will speak at school.

If you listen to some groups of teenagers such as those on Jamie's Dream School one of the biggest hurdles they have is the inability to convey meaning because of their very very poor language skills.

Learning the cultural norms of the group with whom you will work whether that be opera, horses or bingo, depends on the group. Being able to relate to others is the point. Some people can go to an interview and make connections with that person and others can't. I think it's been one of my most useful skills. Whoever those people are I can connect - if they're Geordie that's where I'm from. If they have children I have mine. You need to learn how to make connections with people.

Private schools and probably good state schools teach children how to converse, debate, hold their own in arguments and activities like hiking until you're really tired, survival etc, ability to cope with very very long days which you m ay well need if you work in the City in an accountancy practice, ability n ot to be a jobsworth - downing tools but having an internal ability to cope whatever the conditions, that kind of survival skills comes in very handy in plenty of jobs and I suppose it is also something you might well learn on a tough council estaet too of course if you're up all night lookuing afetr your 5 small brothers because your mother is out for the count on heroin.

Probably plenty of other things too but I'm cooking lunch....

I suppose the bottom line is that no o ne has come up with a better system than isphoning off the clever but poor into middle class grammar schools for thos with an IQ over 120 which was the one route we've had in this country which consistently allowed people to get on - see the % of grammar school judges etc. That route in most of the country has gone and the comps are not managing when they mix children together to pull them up in terms of grades or skills or class in the way the grammars did.

Xenia, just as I was guilty of making sweeping generalisations about private education I think you are guilty of making sweeping generalisations about state education.

My children attend a state secondary school. So far as I can tell none of them are so far targetting crack dealer as a career option. My children cover the ability spectrum but each is being taught in groups according to their ability. DD1 is in her GCSE year and her minimum target grades are realistic straight As in proper normal academic subjects.

By the way, this is not a good school by any stretch of the imagination. As I have grumbled many times the school goes in and out of special measures like it has got caught on the door handle.

Dont forget that television programmes are heavily cut to make a particular point. Also the participants do not reflect the state educated population as a whole. Dramatic licence is taken for what will make good television rather than for what will make accurate television.

The current state system is far from ideal however I dont believe that a return to the old style grammar is the solution either. The 11+ was a crude tool. The result was clear to all as being success or failure. Upstream I have described a state system (Netherlands) which works well. Portofino has described a similar effective system in Belgium. Both of these systems produce a judiciary, excellent medical systems, politicians etc. Private education is not essential for the state apparatus to work effectively.

No one is proposing to stop the right of parents to educate at home, educate abroad or educate by paying fees or using tutors. I'ev also said most children are in state schools and plenty of them do fine but was just looking at the huge advantages which seem to go to those where the parents do pay fees

On my list I didn't mention one main issue which may be expectations. Someone on another thread said their daughter had done so well she was a nurse and wow that's marvellous, particularly if the res tof the family left school without qualifications. In another family however they would expect her to be a leader in her field as a doctor in the NHS.

It is almost impossible to post on these threads without resorting to anecdote, but then, if you read enough anecdotes you can end up with a degree of perspective; therefore, my family experience is relevant in that, over many generations, we have jumped in and out of independent, selective and comprehensive education at different stages with little difference in outcomes because, in my opinion, it is the ethos of the family that makes the difference, rather than the setting that the school part of education takes place in. Cousins educated in different settings achieving remarkably similar (excellent)results.

State schooling does not make "sow's ears" out of "silk purses" and it is debatable whether the opposite really holds true for independent schools IMO.

The children of this generation are all being educated in the state system because it did not hold their parents back (and i must admit that my siblings and I used our excellent results to choose careers in the arts and therefore can't afford school fees ).

Class sizes at secondary level are often just as small in state secondaries when you get to exam level higher up the school.

Ps. Xenia, my sister had excellent music tuition at our comp , getting her grade eight and then a first class music degree and all our children are well spoken, so there!

I think that would be a really miserable existence and I would hate it but that is obviously MHO. It seems a bit mad if the local school is so great. 18 years is a really long time to live on an extreme budget.

If your current earnings are so low as to neccessitate "scrimping" to the extent you mention for the next 18 years - how much did private schooling actually benefit you???

Don't do it now.

You can't afford it. The days of being able to scrimp and save and do without in order to pay for school fees are long gone. School fees have outstripped inflation for years and years, and will continue to do so.

I suspect you are looking at the fees for them at the age of 3 or 4. These are very small relative to what you would have to pay in secondary.

The fees for mine, both at independent day schools are £24k. This is net of DS's scholarship, which doesn't get you much off the fees. Uniform, school trips and additional music lessons and what have you tots up to another 4k. Total bill £28k, paid out of taxed income.

I also suspect you are hoping you will earn more and it will be affordable when you qualify as a solicitor. DO NOT COUNT YOUR CHICKENS. There are literally thousands of bright young things coming out of their LPC courses with very few training contracts available. They are all having to fight over measly paralegal jobs paying around £18k a year. So very well done for retraining, but please don't think that retraining automatically will get you a higher income. It may do. I hope it does. But in your decision making process you have to factor in that it may not.

My suggestion is that you bung them into the infant school which is good. Finish your retraining. Then if you do get a well-paid job you'll be in a genuine position to send them private.