to think that evicting hundreds of travellers from their site is unfair and immoral

[rocketty]

It's an illegal site. They didn't have planning permission. It's greenbelt...

but it used to be a car scrapyard (not rolling fields and thatched cottages then), they own the land and it's right next to a legal settlement.

They've obviously broken the law by settling here, but on balance, wouldn't it be more ethical to let them be? The children are settled at school and getting an education. Lots of people are prejudiced against gypsies and travellers but they've got to live somewhere.

I've seen the news articles about it. It makes me feel sad.

I think Math is saying that it's pretty pointless to spend £18mil evicting them next week or whenever, only for them to set up camp 10 miles down the road soon after and start the whole £18mil, 10 year process again. There's just no easy answer is there? It's horrifying to read suggestions of entire groups of people being moved from offical camp to offical camp, with those camps effectively being policed. It smacks of concentration camp lite. But equally, as Maryz says, providing freely accessible, 'self serve' camps just means the initial users of it nick all the fittings and leave it unusable. There's no answer.

Incidentally, Mathanxiety's posts on this thread have been really interesting and have given a lot of factual information that most people wouldnt be aware of. Thank you

It says quite a few times that proceedings to have them evicted started as soon as they spread from the legal site to the illegal part. They have used every trick in the book to delay eviction. It's the travellers who have strung this out, not the authorities. The notice of eviction was issued 2 years ago, and Prescott gave them 2 years in which to arrange to leave peacefully.

Was that to me Sarah? if so, I totally agree that they have strung it out for 10 years and it's an appalling waste of money. But how do we stop this happening again? That's all I was saying.

When the law is continuously being flouted (same laws, same offences, same groups involved, same difficulty and delay in achieving redress, different venues) it starts to seem a bit ridiculous. When the same short term solutions are what concerns the law time after time, then the law looks even more ridiculous.

Shortsighted and shortlived are two different things, Blueberties. Do you think this story will be over when they have moved on?

I cannot imagine having to live with the immense stress and disruption of living near an enormous, illegal traveller site. Reading people's experiences on this thread has been eye opening.

No YaMa, to FreddyG.

No, personally I don't think moving them will be the end of it. Part of the problem is that the site grew from a legal site. There was no opportunity to evict and move them on before they gained sufficient numbers.

"When the law is continuously being flouted (same laws, same offences, same groups involved, same difficulty and delay in achieving redress, different venues) it starts to seem a bit ridiculous. When the same short term solutions are what concerns the law time after time, then the law looks even more ridiculous."

I believe in checks and balances to the law, and fairness.

The choice is: come down hard on repeated offenders (enter left HR, ethnic campaigners etc etc)

                 : remove some of the legal checks and balances, which would  disadvantage other tenants and landowners who've done nothing to deserve it

                 : let these people get away with it

                 : carry on as we are doing the best we can trying to be as fair as possible

For me, letting them get away with it and disadvantaging other non-abusive landowners and tenants are out of the question.

Coming down hard on a specialised group will be impossible for you and campaigners to accept.

We are left with muddling on. No matter how these people try to change the law in their favour by making it look ridiculous.

They can travel off, and when they've travelled off, they can travel off a little bit more.

I'm pretty disgusted by anyone trying to defend Dale Farm residents. They've cost the local council millions. That means millions in services for old and disabled people, in respite care, in children's support. It's outrageous, absolutely selfish and outrageous and abusive.

Close down the camps. Give every household living on them a housing application form for the local authority and let them apply for social housing just like anyone else. It's time this country stopped making allowances for these "travellers". If they want to travel, they should do it on their own dime. If they want somewhere to live, they should be expected to follow the same procedures as anyone else.

whollyghost you did what you could. I think you were kind. You were putting yourself on the line by helping them because you could have got the parents having a go at you even though you were doing good.

I'm inclined to agree with you Freddy. Otherwise, there will just be another Dale Farm somewhere else. And now they know that it will take a decade or so to evict them. That's longer than I have lived in one area, as an adult. They will just move to another, legal camp, then illegally spread out again.

I've just read that Sally Bercow has now put in her two penn'orth! For goodness sake! She met one traveller (Paddy) in Big Brother and now she thinks she knows them all.

I also cannot understand how the Jewish community are now trying to compare themselves. What are they thinking of?? This has nothing to do with any historic persecution of Jews/Gypsies etc etc. This concerns one illegal site. If this site were occupied by white Christians or Muslims or little green aliens, the law would be (rightly so) the same.

The travellers from this site display antisocial behaviour that is completely at odds with the area they live in. They intimidate and exude an attitude of entitlement. When they visit the local supermarket, they don't think twice about walking to the front of the queue - it isn't very often that they are challenged. The police appear to turn a blind eye to their shenanigans. At the doctor's surgery there are specific spaces you can't park in - that apparently doesn't apply to them. I could go on with example after example.

I just wanted to say my piece (albeit possibly not that eloquently!)

And impatience is impatience by the way. You think waiting ten years is impatient?

As they keep on travelling on a bit more (at the cost of £8 m every time?) is there any point where the whole exercise begins to look really, really misguided and stupid?

Are taxpayers really happy to fork over whatever it takes to move them on each time? Because if so, taxpayers are mugs who are being shaken down indirectly by the Travellers, and let down by LAs who lack the imagination and determination to work on a more long term approach.

And I think eviction is taking the long view anyway. The short term "easy" solution, for everyone except the locals, is to let them stay. The long term problems caused would be immense, the precedent set would be appalling.

This is the long term view. Show people they cannot do this. It might be painful in the short term but yknow, that's enforcing the law for you.

What do you suggest math?

Taxpayers are mugs? I thought they were impatient?

Truth is, they've been patient and just.

Come on math what's your solution. Let them stay?

They have let their impatience affect their rationality here.

The key is to punish DV and challenge the male domination of the community, try to get the Travellers themselves to redefine what it means to be a Traveller man/Traveller woman This can only be done when LAs and others who are involved focus entirely on that.

The assaults on girls were shown on TV (on MBFGW) with no consequences for the teenage boys involved. That all needs to stop. The old fashioned Irish approach of giving food and fuel vouchers to Travellers instead of the normal children's allowance was an admission that male entitlement was the elephant in the room but of course Irish society as a whole saw no problem with that at that time, so the practical course of vouchers was adopted and the basic structure that caused the problem of hungry children and a high infant mortality rate went unchanged.

Maybe LAs could learn from the experience of aid agencies in Ethiopia where education for girls and the training of local healthcare workers whose focus is healthcare for pregnant women has effected a significant change in birth rates and women's participation in the economy. Legislation that has asserted the right of women to keep control over what they earn has been a positive change also. Enforcement of legislation is improving thanks to the continued hovering of the World Bank and IMF.

math again I will say, have you any idea how much Essec CC and Basildon DC and their agencies have tried to engage with this community? The money that has been spent? The time and resources that have been ploughed in here? (paid for by yours truly)

The response has been the complete annhilation of the local village school, trashing of the faciliies provided, midwives and police and amulance crews attacked...

I am not surprised that the LA and the agencies have reached well past the end of their collective tether

Dale Farm has been a total no go area for years.

It is well known that this sort of worst case scenario can develop, yet a situation has been allowed to fester for ten years here. And LAs are still doing things the same way all other LAs have, both in Ireland and Britain, wrt Travellers. Is anyone surprised by the havoc that is wreaked by the Travellers?

Ten years of seeing your efforts come to nought and still the LAs continue to use the same approaches over and over, and when all eventually (and predictably) fail they are moved onto someone else's greenbelt? Is this value for taxpayer money?

It has not been allowed to fester for 10 years math! The local agencies (and the local community) have been trying to proactively deal with this for 10 years.

They have been thwarted every step of th way by the travellers yet somehow you make this the LA's fault?!

I'm aghast!

So they have been there for ten years, the agencies that have tried to engage with them to no avail whatsoever have tried for ten years, and the site has been a no go area for 'years' -- but that is not festering? Being thwarted for ten years is not a problem festering? If your approach has failed time and time again then your problem is festering.

The LA has spent the taxpayers' money on failed approaches for ten years. Therefore they owe the taxpayers an accounting of what has been tried, what has been achieved, and what, if anything, the LA has learned for the next time so there won't be another ten years of taxpayer misery beginning at the next bank holiday.