to think that evicting hundreds of travellers from their site is unfair and immoral

[rocketty]

It's an illegal site. They didn't have planning permission. It's greenbelt...

but it used to be a car scrapyard (not rolling fields and thatched cottages then), they own the land and it's right next to a legal settlement.

They've obviously broken the law by settling here, but on balance, wouldn't it be more ethical to let them be? The children are settled at school and getting an education. Lots of people are prejudiced against gypsies and travellers but they've got to live somewhere.

I've seen the news articles about it. It makes me feel sad.

There's first hand experience on this thread, so not word of mouth.
Unfortunately they seem to keep getting deleted.

Direct experience Perry, from living in a village with an illegal site for well over a year. As have plenty of others on this thread. Unfortunately, and slightly oddly, all of our posts about our experiences have been deleted.

Methinks someone doesn't like hearing the truth.

And they have homes to go to. They own a lot of property in Rathkeale, in Ireland. As has been stated on this thread by a poster who lives near there, and in the newspapers.

No I am not suggesting that the traveller community are facing a holocaust.
Forgive me if you thought that was my meaning.

I meant that the Roma were treated very similarly to Jews until the end of WW2

I feel that we treat travellers in the way the Roma or Jewish population were treated prior to WW2. Or the Roma are currently treated...

No. The travellers have absolutely no respect for anyone else, or their property. It seems to have been forgotten that you have to earn respect. It isn't a God given right, and why should we respect those who show so little respect for us? They show no respect for others, or even their surroundings.

I have Jewish blood in my family, I have also known Romany Gypsies and both are respectful and thoughtful. Travellers are not.

I'm sorry that that has been your experience Sarah but my experience has been the opposite of yours.
I really respect the traveller families I have met. They've been very decent people working hard to make a living and travelling to find work.

In Europe the view of Roma people is much much worse than the views espoused on here about Travellers

I think it is insulting to the Jewish people to compare them to some of the people on the illegal site. I don't think anyone is aware of their heritage but i don't think it is necessarily that relevant.

The Jews tried to stay in the law and did their best to lie low. They did not intimidate local people and cause trouble. It just doesn't compare. They were actively persecuted alot of the time just because of who they were.

But Sarah isnt talking about Roma,but English Romany gypsies ,something completely different.

Are you sure you are talking about travellers, and not true gypsies?

I personally think it is wrong to compare the travellers with what has happened in the past to Jewish people, Catholics, blacks etc. As a whole, society has moved on considerably since then. Parts of society that are disliked now are disliked for a reason. Not purely because they 'are'.

Can I ask in what capacity you have met them? Because it has been stated before on here that individually they can be charming, and they are also different when they are dealing with others in a formal capacity, when it is to their advantage.

"To the children on this settlement this is the only home they have ever known. To remove them without another camp to settle them is just appalling and will mean that this continues and continues and continues"

These children have parents, who should be prioritising their childrens welfare rather than gearing up for a bloody battle.

I wrote about my experiences which are first hand, but my post hasn't been deleted.
The upheaval and disruption that I've seen a small town go through with only 4/5 caravans, so probably 30 people in all, yet they are untouchable. The police presence stops the brawls that they used to engineer, but they seem to turn a blind eye to the theiving.

I don't think it's at all shocking for posters to talk about building extensions etc without PP. It's no different to what these travellers are doing.

Thanks bubbles. I think it's also insulting to group travellers with Romany Gypsies. And I'd think that Romanys would also be insulted by the grouping.

yeah I'm talking about travellers.
They speak a different language than Roma peoples..as I said earlier gypsy and roma/romany is different than traveller. Crucially though they are treated in the same manner as the Roma in Europe

We traded horses, competed against, travelled to Appleby with, worked and were among travellers for maybe 10 yrs. They were no better or worse than the rest of society. They were blamed on everything under the sun though

I,ve lived as part of a Romany family for 25 years and we have no wish what so ever to be associated with the travellers that have been depicted in the media,if my dd dressed as theirs did she would never be let out the house ,and if my ds,s acted towards woman as their lads do,they wouldnt either.it seems to me that the thing lacking with travellers is respect ,both for themselves and others.

Perry, just to check your position, you're saying thet people who are [from a particular cultural or ethic group that you happen to sympathise with] should be permitted to break the law and get away with it?

I agree Sarah - all the experiences posted on this thread about Romany gypsies have been positive.

WRT travellers PP applications failing more often that non-travellers - has anyone got a link to detailed stats?

My suspiscions would be lies damn lies and statistics that you need to look a little deeper than the top line

I would anticipate that the vast majority of PP apps by travellers are retrospective - ie "this is what we've built, take it or leave it".

Whereas the vast majority or PP apps will be in advance of any building work & will have been drawn up bearing in mind local plans, guidelines, and in consultation with the planning department about what is and isn't likely to get passed - typically with compromises made along the way by the applicants, (and the ones that most probably would fail anyway not submitted at all)

So if you are comparing outcomes for a group of mostly retrospective planning apps with a group of mostly prospective plannings apps then it's apples & pears I'm afraid.

bubbles most traveller families don't behave at all as depicted in mbfgw
they were just as surprised as everyone else when they saw the programme.
It isn't that interesting a show showing people working hard to make a living and finding things tough and difficult

Correct me if I'm wrong please bubbles, but isn't Appleby horse fair a mostly Romany fair? I appreciate that travellers go there too, but also the police (and the RSPCA) keep a fairly high profile to prevent any trouble. Perry, trading with, working alongside etc is completely different to living near a site.

I think it speaks volumes that the Romany think as little of travellers as others do. And I'm not surprised, they have a totally different outlook towards others.

How do you decide which family is Roma and which is a traveller family?

PerryCombover - if you'd truly spent a lot of time with them it would be flipping obvious

Romany gypsies are bred,my dh is a Romany,his children are Romany and so will there children be,they were all legally given Romany gypsy status when our planning application was dealt with using this criteria.

Cant say how an Irish Traveller is defined.

Romany's are "true" gypsies. I recognise their culture and their history as an authentic and separate culture. As most people know; they were persecuted and subject to elimination and persecution under the Nazi regime.

I also (as a result of being heavily involved with farming); have experience of this culture.(All through Europe).
They were nomads and provided seasonal work. Whilst they by virtue, existed on the edge of communities; they were valued for the labour they provided; and there was a symbiotic relationship. They moved with the seasons and they undertook casual farm labour.

To consider the Romany's, in the same sentence with the "Travellers" is in my opinion an absolute travesty . They are an entirely different kettle of fish.

While almost anyone would be able to tell the difference between Roma and traveller - I bet most people would not know a traveller if they met one. If they wished to integrate, they would have no problem doing so.

Sarah,I dont know a lot about Appleby,I know that a lot of Romany gypsies go there but I dont know about travellers attendance.

Travellers are also "bred" and it is obvious to me when I encounter a travelling people but as I don't sepak any of their languages I only know what tradition they come from if they tell me
In the past I have thought Roma to be travellers because they have sounded Irish but claim to be Roma
How is it obvious? Am I missing something?

They look completely different from each other, they sound completely different, they have different traditions, roots, heritage...

so I don't believe you have much experience of travellers. You don't even seem to know what they look like. You are just giving yourself a false voice of authority.