to think that evicting hundreds of travellers from their site is unfair and immoral

[rocketty]

It's an illegal site. They didn't have planning permission. It's greenbelt...

but it used to be a car scrapyard (not rolling fields and thatched cottages then), they own the land and it's right next to a legal settlement.

They've obviously broken the law by settling here, but on balance, wouldn't it be more ethical to let them be? The children are settled at school and getting an education. Lots of people are prejudiced against gypsies and travellers but they've got to live somewhere.

I've seen the news articles about it. It makes me feel sad.

Sorted yes, finally, after 18 million has been spent. And it hasn't actually happened yet. Not ideal I'm sure you'll agree.

Exactly my sentiments, too, whereyouleftit

A massively divisive 'propoganda war' is one thing - pitched battles and loss of life & limb altogether something different. And not something I would support no matter how wrongheaded the Dale Farm residents.

I really feel sorry for the police facing the prospect of trying to keep the peace if the eviction goes ahead.

I don't remember there being problems in the 80's.

I think they were some problems, but on a smaller scale & they didn't go on so long. I suspect because we didn't have all the appeals to Europe/Human Rights stuff back then that the evictions happened much quicker before they could grow into a problem like Dale farm.

I grew up on a rural estate & I remember a number of times (during the 70s & 80s) my Dad going in after the baliffs (he was part of a team from the estate) to clear up the mess and make the site secure after an eviction. My Dad used to refer to them as "Irish tinkers", so I'm assuming they were what we now call travellers. They were typically only there a few weeks before the eviction, which was presumably through the courts if baliffs were involved. (The estate landowner wouldn't hang about if he wanted them gone!) Allegedly there was a mini crime wave while they were around & people used to lock there doors etc (when typically they didn't) - whether this was actually true or not I don't know.

I also remember though the small group of what were locally referred to as "gypsies" (so presumably Roma?) that arrived every harvest time for a few weeks. They kept themselves to themselves pretty much (don't remember their kids going to school for example), but they were well know for working hard during the harvest & they left their camp in an immaculate condition when then moved on.

"I think they were some problems, but on a smaller scale & they didn't go on so long. I suspect because we didn't have all the appeals to Europe/Human Rights stuff back then that the evictions happened much quicker before they could grow into a problem like Dale farm."

This is the point isn't it? We should look at how we have handled the situation and why its gone on so long, learn from it, and make necessary changes.

"I really feel sorry for the police facing the prospect of trying to keep the peace if the eviction goes ahead."

Me too!

I'll tell you one thing - it's all the travellers' fault. Every single bit of it. They were given a two year stay by Prescott to give them time to organise themselves, sort out a place to go and so on. What happened? More people moved in, more buildings went up.

If there is a fight, it is because the travellers looked for it. If children are upset, it is because their parents upset them. If old people are distressed, it is because the group distressed them.

The travellers would be very, very wise to confine their protests to sitting, standing and not moving. There will be very little / no sympathy if one finger is lifted or a fire set.

Well, the travellers in this particular instance tried to play the system and they lost. They have had millions of taxpayers money used to fight their legal fees whilst this whole sorry process has dragged on for 10 yrs.

However, they now have a moral duty to protect their children so when the evection process begins their parents should ensure that they have removed all their children from the site to minimise the emotional impact. Moreover, if they co-operate with the authorities there would be no violence.

However, they now have a moral duty to protect their children so when the evection process begins their parents should ensure that they have removed all their children from the site to minimise the emotional impact.

I have a horrible feeling that the children will be used as pawns in all this.

"However, they now have a moral duty to protect their children so when the evection process begins their parents should ensure that they have removed all their children from the site to minimise the emotional impact. Moreover, if they co-operate with the authorities there would be no violence."

How I agree with you. How likely is this to happen? Not at all. They will use the children and elderly people as propaganda weapons. They already are. Appalling.

From Fellatio because your last sentence is going to get you deleted FN:

"I didn't get to see that post before it was deleted Sarah, but I'm glad you've said it again, because a VERY similar thing happened to me when I was 14, outside a party, at the hands of a boy from my school, who though settled was (rather infamously) of Irish Traveller stock. Completely out of the blue (I hadn't even been talking to him) he pushed me over onto a big pile of builder's sand and held me down and groped my crotch really roughly through my clothes, while his mates watched and laughed. I felt so humiliated and violated by it, and did my best to fight him off but it never occurred to me to tell an adult, and it has only occurred to me in the last few years that what he did constituted a sexual assault.

I suppose he thought he was 'grabbing' as a sign that he fancied me, but of course I knew nothing of that at the time, and frankly it was the last thing in the world that was going to make me fancy ^him. What a loathesome and despicable way to encourage your children to behave. Vile.

And for anyone who can stomach it, you just need to go onto Youtube to see more gypsy fist fights than you can shake a stick at. Even grown women punching one another, scratching, gouging, kicking and pulling one another's hair out as a perfectly acceptable and encouraged way of sorting out any minor dispute. And the audience? The whole Traveller camp, including children of three or four years old, put to the front so they can watch and learn the ways of their lovely 'culture'."

Causing problems = 'so different'.

Problems = truancy, DV, treatment of girls/women generally, fighting/drunk and disorderly behaviour, rubbish everywhere, use of council amenities, refusal to accept council housing because of concept of family. The culture is based on male entitlement as Fellatio points out.

Many municipalities in the US strictly enforce number of residents per residence rules to prevent situations that ExitPursuedByaTroll describes; Hispanic families tend to be multi-generational.

On the one hand we have shortsighted middle class impatience 'There are regular people who have just had enough of other people taking the fricking piss.' and on the other 'We should look at how we have handled the situation and why its gone on so long, learn from it, and make necessary changes.' There will be another £18m spent literally somewhere down the road because they are not going to simply vapourise. Sure, move them on to where?

The more I think about this the more I think it would be unfair and immoral to let them stay,not as the original op put it unfair and immoral to evict them.
Its unfair not just to gypsies and travellers who have followed the correct planning procedures but also to everybody else in the land who has as well.
And immoral because it would then be encouraging others that breaking the law can be rewarded.

Does the local council have any duty of care towards them,it could be argued that they have made themselves homeless.

I agree bubbles4. The rule of law works only because we agree to be ruled. The recent riots showed clearly that society does not have the resources to deal with widespread lawbreaking. Those at Dale Farm refuse to follow the law, and they are numerous, so it presents a problem. But to let it slide just means that others will follow. Personally, I'm not a big fan of anarchy

It is the law that will be left looking really stupid when they settle somewhere else though. and the whole process has to be started up all over again.

It is bubbles, and what makes it worse is that so many people don't know the difference between these travellers and proper Gypsies. Growing up, I experienced both. The travellers caused chaos wherever they went. The Gypsies were, on the whole, welcomed as they usually turned up when it was harvest time and they were paid to help. And, provided they weren't provoked, there were no problems at all.

Just heard my friend is bringing his unit down and they will be an active part of the eviction process :(

They are also not planning to move their children to safety. They are intending to use them as a human shield.

Can't seem to stay off this thread.

Yes, you are probably right about that last sentence Blue. So here's the thing: it's ok for me to say that the behaviour disgusts me, and presumably it's ok to say that I am disgusted my any person who indulges in such behaviour, or who teaches their child that these behaviours/practices are acceptable, and indeed to be encouraged. And it has to be ok, surely, to acknowledge that the practices of grabbing and fist fighting are integral parts of Traveller culture. Surely it is ok the acknowledge that rates of domestic and sexual violence are disproportionately high in the Traveller community, because it is the truth. I didn't just pluck it out of the ether.

But it is NOT ok for me to link the two. I cannot say that I am disgusted by an ethnicity or culture because an integral part of that ethnicity or culture is to indulge in those vile, heinous, backward things.

mathanxietyso what you are saying is the travellers are in a win win situation,seems highly immoral to me.
As they are still there now the eviction date has passed they should be hauled before the courts as I would have thought a criminal offence has been commited.

Can't say that I've been particularly impressed with the moderation on this thread. I can understand why some of the posts have gone, but others seem to have been deleted quite irrationally.

Fellatio, I think you are entitled to be disgusted by the whole culture. No-one has ever claimed it is a lovely culture, Blueberties)

Disgust as a first reaction is entirely justified imo, but the next step is to figure out how to tackle it in a way that doesn't involve a so-called policy where 'out of sight is out of mind' is the aim, because while the Travellers often have a negative impact on the communities they arrive in, the women and children in the community have to live with that their whole lives. No-one will make any headway with the Traveller community until the culture of male entitlement within it is tackled.

Selective application of the law (i.e. not tackling DV while proceeding with evictions) is not telling the Travellers what they need to hear.

Sorry, I don't have time to read through 30 pages. Does anyone know if the council have/had a plan, whereby the travellers can move off the site and live lawfully in the area?

The guy on the Beeb this morning was saying that the council boss told him in a radio interview that he didn't want them in the council's area at all as they 'already had enough' travellers, and that he had done everything he could to ensure they couldn't lawfully relocate anywhere else within the council boundaries. Does anyone know if this is true?

"It is the law that will be left looking really stupid when they settle somewhere else though. and the whole process has to be started up all over again."
I'm not so sure. Laws are written to take into account any circumstances that can be predicted. As circumstances arise that were not predicted, Amendments are passed in Parliament. Maybe some Amendments now have to be made to disallow appeals or speed the process in some way. But the law is left looking as if it is trying to be fair (to the lawbreakers if not to the law-abiding neighbours), whilst the lawbreakers are left looking opportunistic and underhand.

I'm surprised at how little attention this situation has got - I have no doubt that there will be bloodshed if/when and eviction happens, and it will have major repurcussions, and not just for the travellers.

Agree with Mathanxiety's post about the traveller women and children having to live in that culture of male entitlement. Surely the best way to tackle it is split them up, make them let their children go to school. The aim of education is broader horizons, and from what I understand, that is the last thing that those who control the patriarchal traveller community want. Housed seperately, their segregation from the settled community and its values, would be harder to maintain. They know this.

alemci - I did not really help those children, they needed to be taken into care, I was too scared to report them to SS when I lived next door. I'll always be ashamed of that.

"on the one hand we have shortsighted middle class impatience"

hahahahahahahaha

this has gone on for ten years

hahahahahaha

"It is the law that will be left looking really stupid when they settle somewhere else though. and the whole process has to be started up all over again."

No - they will look ridiculous - totally self-inflicted.

If they behave according to the law, don't steal land, don't abuse, threaten and intimidate men, women, boys and girls, and don't make themselves generally unpleasant then people won't be so swift to want them to move on.

They have a choice. They are not victims of circumstance. They are the authors of this situation 100 per cent and I hope they don't get away with it. It would be immoral to allow them to stay.

How would it be "the lesser of two evils" to let them stay?

To let them stay would be a kick in the teeth to anyone who does things the right way.

It should never have been allowed to get this far, they should have been kicked off within days of them setting up camp there, not years later.