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Original poster

to think that evicting hundreds of travellers from their site is unfair and immoral

1004 replies

rocketty · 31/08/2011 20:38

It's an illegal site. They didn't have planning permission. It's greenbelt...

but it used to be a car scrapyard (not rolling fields and thatched cottages then), they own the land and it's right next to a legal settlement.

They've obviously broken the law by settling here, but on balance, wouldn't it be more ethical to let them be? The children are settled at school and getting an education. Lots of people are prejudiced against gypsies and travellers but they've got to live somewhere.

I've seen the news articles about it. It makes me feel sad.

OP posts:
SarahStratton · 04/09/2011 21:43

It's not the LA's fault it's been festering. It's the way the system has been played. They (the travellers) have dragged this through every level of court, being advised on the way by fucking civil rights liberty wankers.

mathanxiety · 04/09/2011 21:49

Every LA in the country has had experience of Travellers for decades, and every LA in the country is happy to move them on to the next LA. How is this an example of responsible use of taxpayers' money by LAs?

If the system is so full of holes that semi literate people can play it at will isn't it time for the LAs and legislators to put their heads together and recognise the thinness of the thread that stands between order and anarchy? The main aspect of the situation that is exploitable by the Travellers, (and it has nothing whatsoever to do with clever lawyers and their inexplicable love for civil liberty) is that there are multiple LAs involved.

If the courts are prepared to entertain their case time and time again, then does the law bring disrepute upon itself?

CurrySpice · 04/09/2011 21:55

It has not been festering math.

I suggest you get here to Essex and find out WTF you are talking about before you spout off!

PigletJohn · 04/09/2011 21:55

I don't understand your point, math.

To cut through all the flannel, and get back to the original question, do you think that people who break planning laws, and have been through the legal process from one end to the other, and lost, should be evicted?

mathanxiety · 04/09/2011 21:59

Ten years of a stand off is a situation that is getting nowhere and therefore festering.

SarahStratton · 04/09/2011 21:59

I bet there's a fair few people now who would take the law into their own hands, rather than face a 10 year wait to get them moved on.

Math, seriously, what Curry said.

CurrySpice · 04/09/2011 22:05

math - I'm sorry but you are talking out of your hat not making sense.

The councils (county and district) have been both trying to deal with the site through legal channels. You seriously undersetimate the travellers if you think of them as "semi-literate" they have played the game beautifully and taken this right to Europe. This has taken 10 years. They have had countless "last chances".

At the same time the authorities have been pouring money into facilities and services for the community, often to the detriment of the original occupants.

Tell me how that is letting it fester

mathanxiety · 04/09/2011 22:06

People usually only think of taking the law into their own hands when the law seems to be putty in the hands of others and powerless to uphold their rights. Ridiculous in other words.

My point is that efforts to engage with the Travellers by healthcare workers, police and school authorities have come to nought for ten years, all at the taxpayers' expense. This has been the case elsewhere too, but apparently each LA sees fit to reinvent the wheel every time they have to deal with Travellers, all at taxpayer expense. Ten years is a long time to be trying the same old same old over and over and for taxpayers to be funding both the health and school agencies' efforts and the solicitors' cases on behalf of the council.

CurrySpice · 04/09/2011 22:07

I refer you to my 22:05 post

CurrySpice · 04/09/2011 22:07

And, just out of interest, what do you suggest the councils should have done Hmm

SarahStratton · 04/09/2011 22:19

The LAs have no choice. They have to go through the correct channels, to do things the right way. Or they would have the human rights brigade baying for their blood and any court order overturned. The travellers have played the system and managed to string this out for 10 years. Nobody, other than the travellers themselves and those making money out of the legal system, wanted it to drag on for 10 years.

Imagine what would be being posted now if the LA involved had ignored the legal channels and just taken the law into their own hands.

PigletJohn · 04/09/2011 22:31

cooeee, math, can you hear me?

how about an answer to my question?

CurrySpice · 04/09/2011 22:34

Or mine

mathanxiety · 04/09/2011 22:42

Pouring money into facilities and services for the community?

This is from the Guardian (eye roll please; don't bother reading if it's not what you want to hear)
'For all the tabloid furore over unauthorised...sites, there are 14,510 caravans on council and private sites with planning permission in England and just 3,636 caravans without; these unauthorised sites could be legally accommodated on as little as one square mile of land....'
'...Basildon was supposed to provide 84 pitches in addition to the 100 authorised (mostly privately owned) pitches it already has. But the coalition has signalled it will scrap these regional targets, so councils are disregarding them. Basildon council says instead it will provide three new pitches each year to meet demand. South Cambridgeshire district council has no plan to provide or approve any Gypsy sites at all, despite having more caravans than any other local authority in the country.'

The travelling life is being squeezed out by increasing restrictions on where Travellers can park if they travel. They have been forced to opt instead for settling. When they try to settle, their pp applications are more often than not turned down, mostly on 'visual impact' grounds. What is being argued here on this thread is that it is perfectly reasonable for outright hatred of Travellers to masquerade in the courts as viable grounds for opposition to their applications for planning permission, but their use of the courts to protect their rights and try to find somewhere to settle is nothing but a cynical attempt to poke the taxpayers in the eye.

Taxpayers of Basildon should ask why the DA thinks £8m plus £10 m for anticipated police costs in the upcoming eviction is the best use of their money here. If getting rid of people you loathe is your priority then fine, you probably think it's money well spent. Declaring open season on the Travellers is one way for opportunists among the political classes (i.e. most politicians) to shore up their core vote, unfortunately, so taxpayers can probably look forward to more of their money being used to 'solve' problems by costly evictions after they have been cynically allowed to fester. It has never hurt the Conservatives to appeal to the most base instincts of voters.

FellatioNelson · 04/09/2011 22:42

To be fair, she might have gone to bed!

mathanxiety · 04/09/2011 22:43

Afaik, they have yet to hear the last word on their appeals, so no, they should not be evicted.

FellatioNelson · 04/09/2011 22:43

So, to re-cap, why are they still there again? Was there some last minute legal reprieve/hitch?

mathanxiety · 04/09/2011 22:44

Waiting up for partying DCs to roll home so no bed for a while for me...

CurrySpice · 04/09/2011 22:49

math, I'm afraid that is hopelessly one sided.

BDC has bent over backward to support the travellers, educating their children, providing a community centre and providing health care. They are not heartless nazis believe it or not. They have not tried to "Squeeze out" traveller culture.

I honestly believe Basildon DC and Essex CC have done more than they reasonably needed to to accomodate the travellers and I personally cannot blame them if they do not want to welcome more onto their area any time soon. They also have to take care of the other residents in their area

PigletJohn · 04/09/2011 22:52

sorry, math, I'm too simple for that.

I can see the fluff and flannel, but where's your answer?

PigletJohn · 04/09/2011 22:53

I did say "and have been through the legal process from one end to the other, and lost,"

CurrySpice · 04/09/2011 23:11

I agree piglet.

C&Ping from the Grauniad does not a conclusive argument make!

TBH I'm not sure what side math is on now I read back

mathanxiety · 04/09/2011 23:19

In general, the travelling aspect of the culture is being squeezed out, not necessarily by Basildon acting alone. It has happened in Ireland and all over Britain, a trend over the last several decades.

'do you think that people who break planning laws, and have been through the legal process from one end to the other, and lost, should be evicted?'

Short answer is yes and no, PigletJohn. Yes they should be evicted if it is reasonably certain that the plaintiffs are not motivated by hatred or the law used as a cowardly way of legally engaging in discrimination, No they should not be evicted if you are reasonably sure this is a case of discrimination from start to finish.

Long answer is about planning laws and how they are applied.

PrincessTamTam · 04/09/2011 23:27

I think what Math is saying is if we don't learn from history we are doomed to repeat it...again and again and again. These people will not magically disappear when/if they are evicted from this site. We need to learn from this and find a better solution for next time it happens, which it inevitably will... Isn't she?
PigletJohn see math's 22:43 post - there's her answer.

CurrySpice · 04/09/2011 23:27

Crikey math have you got splinters in your arse from sitting on the fence?

Rather than coming on and postulating what you think might be the case, why not have a read online and see what actaully did happen in this case

The truth lies somewhere between the Grauniad and the Daily Mail.

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