to think that evicting hundreds of travellers from their site is unfair and immoral

[rocketty]

It's an illegal site. They didn't have planning permission. It's greenbelt...

but it used to be a car scrapyard (not rolling fields and thatched cottages then), they own the land and it's right next to a legal settlement.

They've obviously broken the law by settling here, but on balance, wouldn't it be more ethical to let them be? The children are settled at school and getting an education. Lots of people are prejudiced against gypsies and travellers but they've got to live somewhere.

I've seen the news articles about it. It makes me feel sad.

YaMaYaMa, can you give me an example of where it would be appropriate to substitute the word "they" with the name of another group of people/tribe/race/ethnic group in the paragraphs I have cited above that would not be worthy of deletion? What other groups do you think that it would be "arrogant" to suggest that perhaps that kind of hateful talk should be deleted? Or is it especially the travellers who should be spoken about in this way?

It's not about agreement or disagreement, it's about the nature of the posts and why it is okay to generalise about one group but not another. Anything even vaguely whiffing of racism would be removed immediately but this, apparently, is just "opinion".

But the 'travellers' are not a race surely. They are just a bunch of people who choose to live in a specific way. And most people on here are speaking from personal experience. And we are all entitled to an opinion are we not?

AWA - where do you live?

w9w5 - have you seen the thread about a horse being kept in a back garden. Read that MNetters experience of living next to settled 'travellers' (is that any oxymoron?)

Working9 Are you calling me a liar ?
I have direct experience of the travelling community and I am reporting it honestly.
I stand by what I say.
For your benefit, I will share.
I am left of left in my politics. I am a Woman that's a very active member in female socialist groups and I was part of the Greenham camp.
I don't need to roll out my Feminist or Social Awareness credentials.
Annewiddecomesarse (my name) does not define me.
I stand by what I say.
Travellers are not deserving of support.

Well, I'll be honest, I've never read such angry and, yes, awful, things on a thread on MN, some of it is shocking. But I believe that these things should be left up and then people can address them when they read them.

AnneWiddecomesArseThey are liars, they are scumbags , they are thieves .

1.Is that all travellers?
2 Or just some travellers?
Because if you answer yes to question 1,then I will call you a liar and state that your post is racialist.

I think for some people (like Vanessa Redgrave) that label of 'misunderstood and persecuted ethnic minority' just blinds them to everything else. They cease to be able to comprehend anything other than those words, and just stick their fingers in their ears and go 'lalalala' when others try to explain what the real issues are. It's incredibly insulting and frustrating to be told that you are NIMBY fascist small-minded racist bigot if you dare to speak out about your personal experiences of crime, threats, violence, anti-social behaviour etc at the hands of these people.

Take the BFGW programme - all that secrecy and last minute confirmation of where the wedding receptions will take place is NOT, as they say, because they can't get any venues due to prejudice against them (although there may well be truth in that) it is because they are constantly trying to shake off the police and the taxman, Trading Standards etc, and other Travellers they are feuding with who may turn up with shotguns and knives.

And when the venue owners do refuse to take their bookings, or cancel last minute, it is NOT because of prejudice or racism per se, but because experience will have told them that some people's business is really better turned away. And when someone in the hospitality industry would rather shut up shop than take Travellers' money then you have to ask yourself why.

AnneWiddecomesArse, Are you calling me a liar?
I have direct experience of the travelling community and I am reporting it honestly.
For your benefit, I will share.
I am moderately centrist in my politics. I do not read the Guardian. I find the feminist threads too extreme. I have no strong feelings about this eviction. I can see that travelling communities cause disruption in many of the places that they camp and that legal efforts to deal with this are often hampered. There are a lot of things about traveller culture that I really dislike and I would not support, most particularly when it comes to the treatment of women.

I stand by what I say, however. Whatever your experience, whatever your feeling, you do yourself no favours by talking about human beings in this way, or assuming that your experiences are totally generalisable.

As for your comment Blueberties, you are extrapolating. Anyone who has made another person suffer through criminal and disordered activity should feel shame, but that does not make it okay to talk about an entire group of people and say they are liars, scumbags and thieves because of your experiences even if statistically, that group of people are more likely to engage in antisocial and criminal activity. It is not civilised, it is not responsible, it shouldn't be seen to be supported when talking about other groups in this way would not be deemed appropriate.

Im sorry but they all had a choice here!!
THEY chose to buy a piece of land they knew they couldnt build on or live on, they made the choice to build/live there, they made the choice to send their children to school knowing they were living there when they shouldnt, they made the choice to continue doing so even though they knew the council were legally trying to evict them years ago!!
These are their choices, no one is forcing them to live illegaly, to uproot their children, THEY are doing it themselves. If you want to live in the UK, you follow the rules of the UK. They have been offered other site (IIRC) but they dont want them.
I would gladly buy a lovely piece of green belt and build a house but I dont, Im sure we would all love to do it, but we dont.
As for the car scrap yard, Im guessing that was what it was legally allowed to be.

They don't have recognised status of race where they originate from, only here. And working with them is massively different to having to live near them. As has been stated time after time on here, they can be charming when they want to be. Sadly, that is not what they are like once you have left their company.

Maybe all these do-gooders and supporters should try turning up at Dale Farm anonymously and seeing what sort of reception they receive then. Because it won't be all sweetness and light then.

I've been having a think about this.

I'm fed up paying mortgages and rent, so I'm thinking of breaking into your house when you're out and living there as a squatter. I will type a rental agreement in a fictitious name and claim that I am a lawful tenant.

I will go to an old people's home and get some frail old lady to live there with me, so I can say it would be cruel to evict her. If I can hire a couple of young kids I will put them up as well.

I'll see if I can find a sympathetic bishop to support me.

Sounds like a good plan to me.

BTW I am a Welsh Episcopalian, but not all of us behave this way.

the site is HUGE!! They are allowed on half the site, move the unwell woman there and move the rest on www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14746074

Sorry Sarah, but you seemed to have missed the fact that I also lived near travellers for pretty much all of my childhood and teenaged years.

I am making a broader point here about what's acceptable in terms of how you refer to and talk about other people based on class/ethnic group etc.

I am no do-gooder, I am not particularly lefty, I appreciate that there are immense problems with aspects of this way of life that cause pain and suffering to others but I do not think it is okay to talk about any group of human beings in the way that they are being spoken about on this thread.

I think you can state, as lisad123 has done above, all the reasons that this eviction is very reasonable and not an abuse of human rights etc without resorting to "they are all thieves, they behave like locusts" hate-filled stuff. I have no issue with any opinion on this eviction, but the rhetoric is very problematic and in my opinion it debases those of you who use it, even at its very basic "they have no problem being charming when they want to be. .

I am not foolish. I don't romanticise the traveller's way of life or fall for that guff about them being the last nomadic tribe of Western Europe, all speaking Shelta and telling oral epics. I am not sorry that there are no travellers in my area at present. I think that there needs to be enforcement of the law. I think it is very regrettable that so many of the travelling community engage in crime and disorder and I do not excuse or condone any of this behaviour. I would never condemn any business person for being wary of taking on a traveller wedding.

It is better to discuss these things reasonably if you have the ability to do so at all.

AnneWiddecombesArse, you are not as liberal as you think you are despite your, erm, "credentials" (what a way to look at politics! ) and I am clearly more liberal than I thought. To say that travellers are entirely unlawful is just inaccurate and to use the word parasites is just reactionary.

What on earth did I get deleted for? I know I wasn't personal, abusive, trolling hunting, trolling or racist. Looking forward to hearing from HQ because I'll repost it as soon as I find out what it was.

AnneWiddecomesArse,if your not racialist why are you spouting racialist crap on the internet,MNHQ must have thought so because your post has been deleted.
About the only thing I agree with in your vitriolic post is that travellers are not a race,no perhaps they are not but they are an ethnic minority that are protected by the Race Relations act.

lets just back to grouping everyone one together shall we??
I have met some lovely traveller families in my work and have met some horrible ones. I have met some lovely black people and some horrible ones, I have met lovely white people and horrible ones and lovely indian familes and horrible ones.
People are PEOPLE, they are not their groups, they are indivuals who have choices to make and rules in which they live their lifes by.

No I dont agree they should stay, yes I think they should pay council tax (why should we just be bled dry by money grabbing LA??), yes I believe all children should have access to education and everyone should pay taxes if they are making use of the NHS. BUT what I think doesnt matter, what the LAW says does. Its the only way the UK can run in a ordered way without everyone behaving in a way that is unfair, unjust and out of order.

Just wanted to say that I didn't report you Blueberties! That surprised me too!

Who's going to complain about travellers who obey the law, pay their taxes, pay their way, are considerate, treat people properly?

Who?

Who is going to complain about them purely on the grounds that despite all this they are a different ethnic group? Because that would indeed be racism.

Answer: no one. Not one soul. Every single complaint and story is about actions and activities.

Oh thanks for telling me that working. Anyone want to let on? I understand if you don't.

Maybe they did it by mistake. I haven't had an email. Do you get an email?