to think that evicting hundreds of travellers from their site is unfair and immoral

[rocketty]

It's an illegal site. They didn't have planning permission. It's greenbelt...

but it used to be a car scrapyard (not rolling fields and thatched cottages then), they own the land and it's right next to a legal settlement.

They've obviously broken the law by settling here, but on balance, wouldn't it be more ethical to let them be? The children are settled at school and getting an education. Lots of people are prejudiced against gypsies and travellers but they've got to live somewhere.

I've seen the news articles about it. It makes me feel sad.

We have "rent a cause" instead. Ms Redgrave, bless her.

I heard Joan Bakewell talking about this on R4 Any Questions yesterday as well, and I was disappointed in her - such an intelligent and perceptive woman normally, yet she was bizarrely woolly and ineffectual on this subject. She said she's worked and stayed among Travellers and she kept going on about how immaculate and clean their caravans were, as though that alone somehow justified and cancelled out all the other appalling stuff.

Exactly.

Irish travellers (and English travellers) have recognised status as a race, not a subculture. And they are certainly not 'tinkers'. That's so offensive. As for 'scumbags' and 'scum through and through', words fail me.

Lady - do you have anything to say about this issue, or the way Irish travellers have conducted themselves according to people on this thread?

Do you think people on this thread are lying about how the travellers have behaved, or not lying?

are you sure they have "recognised status as a race"? And if so, why? Do you think that some races should take precedent over others, when it comes to the law? I don't.

"Tinkers" on this thread has only been used to explain Irish travellers' origins. If you somehow find any use of the word so offensive, I suggest you report those posts to MNHQ. Are there other professional occupations that must never again be mentioned?

'"'And what exactly is repeated evictions going to achieve?? it is going to be a huge cost to the tax payer, the chilldrens education is going to be further damaged, and it makes life more dangerous for the children as social services won't have a clue what is going on. How is this helping anyone?'"'

This is as stupid a question as "Why should we stop children from stealing/bullying?". Seriously, wake up. What is not evicting them going to achieve? What kind of message is that going to send to them and to the rest of the UK population? That if you are of a low socio-economic status then you can do anything you damn well please because if you aren't allowed then people are "unfair" and "discriminating"? Give me a break. Some of you really need a wake up call.

Never has the chasm of ingorance and misunderstanding seemed so great between well-meaning, well-heeled, liberal hand-wringers and the people who live at the sharp end of life.

I hope this is a wake-up call for Islingtonites. Read and learn.

My head is still spinning at the attitudes on this thread. Where are all the do good lefties?

I too was disappointed with Joan Bakewell's article in the Telegraph yesterday. She seems to have a very rose tinted view of the travelling community.

Heard on the radio this morning that people are flocking from all over Europe to give the Dale Farm residents advice on how to beat the bailiffs. Seems it is nowhere near over.

I used to be such a liberal. Now I look at those protestors arriving at Dale Farm and think, get a job you nobber. Contribute.

How many of you people actually have worked with people in the travelling community or have any knowledge of them at all?

There is a lot of traveller culture I don't understand and I am glad I was not born into that world, especially as a woman, but it is completely unreasonable that some of the bigoted stereotypy on this thread is allowed to stand. There are a large number of traveller children in a local school, many of whom I have worked with and their families all contribute very usefully to their school communities. The children are well cared for and their behaviour is extremely good, even more so when compared to some of the "settled" children in that school.

I can't believe the mass generalisations made by some of you, you should be ashamed of yourselves. I am reporting your posts. AWA (apt name for you) and WM.

I sense a ruck starting.

Most of it seems to be based on personal experience. Are you saying they're lying?

working9 - which bit of AWA's posts are you going to report?

are you accusing her of lying?

AWA if you've said anything that might be remotely considered racist I'd copy yr posts now and repost them afterwards without the bits that they'll be deleted for.

I'm saying that it really doesn't matter whether anyone is lying or not, the generalising way that travelling people are being spoken about here is really horrific.

There were always travellers camping near my home as a child. I remember being frightened of a few but no more so than I was of others in my community who were, say, alcoholics or "rough". I think that there should be measures taken to deal with rubbish/sanitation etc and I have no strong feelings about the eviction, I feel that the law has to be enforced for all members of the community, but I don't think that any of the issues there are with having travelling communities in an area excuses the type of language being used here.

My husband's family are farmers. They have had pretty negative dealings with what they would call "tinkers" but I will not allow them to talk about travellers in front of my kids using disparaging language or making the kind of sweeping vitriol that's been used here because I would not encourage anyone to talk about humans based on their class or any other broad characteristic because it is not civilised or educated and I won't support it. There are horrific practices that go on in parts of Africa e.g. FGM and voodoo, racketeering, corruption, rape etc but it would not be reasonable to say "Africans behave like locusts, they are generally not nice people, they have complete disregard for the law, animals, women, kids" etc.

I dont think you should report any of these posts actually. It's not a personal attack, it's an opinion. It might not be an opinion that you agree with, but it's incredibly arrogant to think that they should be deleted because you disagree

Or
"They are liars, they are scumbags , they are thieves"

I've spent some time with some really decent people who are travellers. My mother teaches some of these kids, some who are settled, some who are not. My uncle employed a traveller girl and she was incredibly hard working, always punctual and no - as much as it may shock some of you - she didn't steal a thing.

There are all sorts of ways of talking about these issues without resorting to the vile hateful language being used here.