to think that evicting hundreds of travellers from their site is unfair and immoral

[rocketty]

It's an illegal site. They didn't have planning permission. It's greenbelt...

but it used to be a car scrapyard (not rolling fields and thatched cottages then), they own the land and it's right next to a legal settlement.

They've obviously broken the law by settling here, but on balance, wouldn't it be more ethical to let them be? The children are settled at school and getting an education. Lots of people are prejudiced against gypsies and travellers but they've got to live somewhere.

I've seen the news articles about it. It makes me feel sad.

It's not really possible to say they don't really speak the language on a daily basis or whether they do, as they tend to try to keep it under their hats to a large extent. It has always functioned as a cryptolect.

Kuno Meyer thought the language had probably existed since early medieval times, but it has gone through plenty of metamorphosis since then (as have English and Irish).

sarah, i would say many of the residents who live in the shit hole of a council estate where my foster son grew up are scum too- I was there today and it was a frightening, depressing experience, should we just torch them too? or are they ok because the state is funding them? They really piss me off too. What is the difference?

How come they don't mind living in 'dark houses' back in Ireland then?

And all the woolly liberals with their hearts bleeding over the poor travellers plight should try being a 14 year old girl, standing with a couple of other children, at a bus stop early in the morning waiting for a school bus. Whilst the illegally camped travellers who have set up opposite the bus stop shout obscenities, threaten you, and throw rubbish at you.

Because, in real life, that is what they are like.

If they are not permitted to set up massive camps like dale farm, wherever they so please, they are more likely to become integrated into society. Providing them with the means to do whatever they please is bloody unfair, considering how hard it is for the rest of us to secure accomodation close to our kin.

^ that is the difference. No, anyone who acts like that is scum. Whatever background they come from. These people chose to live like this. They don't have to. They have houses and own land back, they'd just rather live over here.

WRT Shelta in education, I would say do it if it gets education a foot in the door. It's hard to justify expenditure on any educational effort that is basically getting nowhere and has made little or no progress since it was started. No point in throwing good money after bad.

Plus, English is a language that presents a lot of difficulties for the beginning reader even if that reader uses English as a first language, and if that beginning reader is being exposed to what is essentially a different language the exercise of reading becomes even more difficult. The grammar and syntax of Shelta are basically the same as English but the difficulties are enormous all the same, and this difficult task is imposed on children whose culture is oral and whose community has not accepted the need for education in the first place. Why not make things a little easier for all and see if the effort could make a difference? It is the children who suffer in the end if the efforts of the authorities don't work.

I don't think you can judge a language based on how it is used. English was used after all to oppress the Irish-speaking Irish and Gaelic-speaking Scots, and the Welsh. Using a strong regional accent used to be a way for the BBC to weed out potential newsreaders. You announce your socio-economic origins every time you open your mouth in Britain, laying yourself open to all sorts of judgement and discrimination. Just because the English language is used to include or exclude doesn't mean it shouldn't be taught or appreciated. Every language lost is a diminution of the human environment.

About five years ago a load of travellers took up residence on the playing fields of a primary school where my friend taught over a bank holiday weekend. When the school opened on the Tuesday they found bags of human shit thown over the fence into the playground. They had to keep the children in school until the environmental health people could come and deal with it and then had to keep them in longer durings breaks until the council/police could move them on because the traveller children and adults - unbelievable - were abusing and swearing at the children through the railings.

I have no sympathy at all.

With all due respect to all the arguements and opinions that have been stated on here today......

And i take all of them on board.

This is about making children/families homeless.

No matter who's at fault.

When the council gives them the house next door to you or near you.

Because the council will have to house them.

Will you be welcoming?

Or will you ignore them as you would ignore any other neighbore.

Or will you moan about their different lifestyle?

'This is about making children/families homeless.

No matter who's at fault.

When the council gives them the house next door to you or near you.

Because the council will have to house them.

Will you be welcoming?

Or will you ignore them as you would ignore any other neighbore.

Or will you moan about their different lifestyle?'

I live over a temporary/homeless council housing. I honestly don't give a fat rat's arse why the people who are there are there, who they are, what they do (including sell drugs) as long as they are relatively quiet and don't visit any anti-social behaviour on us. The second they do, then we have a problem, because I do unto others as I'd have them do to me.

This is about people breaking the law and as a result they are becoming homeless. They may not even be found involuntarily homeless and so the council only have a 30-day duty to house them. Who knows?

We may have had travellers living under us, maybe not, as long as they obey the rules that go with living here and don't behave anti-socially, I don't really care.

reelingintheyears don't give a fig because as soon as they play up they would be evicted.

They would have to pay full rent as they are all so keen to tell us they work and would no longer be able to pull their girls out of school on the pretext they are travelling

Also they would not be able to claim benefits here and in irland which is what many do

And they won't be homeless they have had 10 years to find some were else to live or red grave could always take them in lol

This is about making children/families homeless

You're wrong, reeling. This is about a group of people, many of whom own their own homes/land in Ireland and elsewhere, who have flouted the law at the taxpayer's expense for a decade.

If any of these 'travellers' are found to be in need of social housing, it is to be hoped that the relevant local authorities will ensure that there is minimal opportunity for them to form yet more ghettos in the UK's towns and cities.

Have they even evicted anyone yet?

Hopefully

It seems that the UN has become involved and has said that "bailiffs should be called off until travellers are found ?culturally appropriate alternative accommodation?".

So it's to be a boat trip back to Ireland for all of them, then?

Ask the Irish if they want them back. Ask the Travellers if they are prepared to 'travel' back to Ireland.

I am told that if these people were to do in Ireland, as they are doing here, they would be facing criminal charges.........

Really the UN has got too much time on its hands. Not a clue.

People are always very happy to spend other people's money, aren't they? Poor flaming people of Essex having to fund this nonsense.

I will be interested to see what happens if force has to be used. No doubt they will sit, stand, lie etc and have to be carried away.

I do hope the council doesn't cave. They sound calm, patient but determined and organised. They know how bad this could look. But I think the "travellers" realise they have to look good too and so won't be able to do more than sit in, lock their doors.

The council have said they won't destroy the homes, but store them. If they have to be bashed in and destroyed to get the people to move out it's the travellers' fault.

I doubt very much they would avail themselves of offers of social housing anyway. I bet when push comes to shove (if you'll pardon the pun ) there will suddenly be plenty of places they can go to. Of course they will probably be privately owned plots with no planning there either ....

I'm sure the majority of them could manage to pay rent in the private sector too. But as they will never do that, the only choice we have, if we are to get anywhere with this perennial problem is to have lots and lots of small tightly controlled temporary halting sites. Divide and conquer might be the only way!

Personally I don't care whether they integrate or don't integrate, educate their children or don't educate them. They are by no means the only community in the Britain who choose to live a segragated, backward, patriarchal, tribal lifestyle.

I just want them to make sure that the life they choose does not impact negatively on the rest of us. If you choose illiteracy, if you choose to have 8 children, if you choose to be of no fixed abode, if you choose to have consanguinous marriages resulting in high levels of SENs, SNs, and birth defects, if you choose to go below the radar with the authorities and the taxman, all of those things have an impact on how you are able to function as a healthy and socially responsible community. Why should we be bending over backwards to find ways to help and support them in a lifestyle choice which is totally at odds with what is expected of every other citizen, when they clearly have no intention of adapting to help themselves? They are very good at making all the right noises about wanting education and integration, to be willing to pay tax and council tax etc, but their actions prove the opposite, again and again.

segregated

God, I wish I didn't feel the need to do that all the time!

Shall I slowly start counting down from 100 until someone comes along and says 'but that's not all travellers, there is good and bad in every community' ??

Yes there is, of course. But some communities would appear to have a higher proportion of er...'problem' members. If you have not personally lived alongside it and experienced it for yourself, you are not qualified to tell others how they should and should not feel about it. And you are certainly not qualified to tell them their feelings are racist.

Acually I am amazed at this thread. We all seem to be preaching to the converted. I was expecting more of a ruck to be honest! I imagine all the Guardianistas are still in Tuscany.....