to think that evicting hundreds of travellers from their site is unfair and immoral

[rocketty]

It's an illegal site. They didn't have planning permission. It's greenbelt...

but it used to be a car scrapyard (not rolling fields and thatched cottages then), they own the land and it's right next to a legal settlement.

They've obviously broken the law by settling here, but on balance, wouldn't it be more ethical to let them be? The children are settled at school and getting an education. Lots of people are prejudiced against gypsies and travellers but they've got to live somewhere.

I've seen the news articles about it. It makes me feel sad.

WhereYouLeftIt no just like some black people who claim their Jamaican. Most have never even been to Ireland, but the reason they speak with such a broad accent is because they don't mix with any one else and are only at school for a very short time and the local school is usual full of just one or two travelling site as they usually have on average 4 or 5 children

They have only wanted council sites since farmers and other landowners in Ireland and elsewhere stopped allowing them to park on common land or by the sides of roads. Before the 60s in Ireland they used to move about in smaller groups and were tolerated to varying degrees by the mainly rural population.

Government policy in Ireland from the 60s on was to try to integrate them more into settled society, while at the same time settled society itself was moving steadily into urban areas and the agricultural sector was fast becoming big business as opposed to small farm operations. The Travellers found themselves unwelcome in the countryside and unable to make any sort of a living when people started buying new farm tools and kitchen pots and pans instead of having them mended by the 'Tinkers'. The horse trade declined. They drifted into the outskirts of cities and kept together in the unfamiliar environment, becoming dependent on the dole and more and more inclined to fall prey to alcohol abuse and the various negative cycles that brings with it.

At the same time, government policy to settle them on sites and in housing proceeded but with a good deal of opposition on the part of residents of the estates and from the Travellers themselves.

There has been a good deal of rethink about the failure of efforts to integrate the Travellers in Ireland. The policy was seen by those who shaped it as eminently sensible and therefore possible. However, no effort was made to consult the Travellers themselves and get them on board. Present day policy in Ireland is more inclined towards co-operative engagement and recognition of the fact that you can't force a square peg through a round hole no matter how desirable the aim of your policy may be.

However a lot of time has been lost and in the meanwhile many Travellers have found their nuisance value is high as Maryz says, so there isn't really much incentive for a very macho society to go along with pious appeals to play nice for the sake of the health and welfare of women and the education of children, especially the education of girls. Traveller society is a man's world.

WhereYouLeftIt -- The accents are Traveller accents. The group as a whole is of Irish descent but many have lived in Britain for generations. They keep to themselves and therefore the accent doesn't get modified much.

mathanxiety many Irish Travellers moved to the UK in the 1970's IIRC probably as a result of the policies above, so this would be why the women in their 50-60 year olds have marked Irish accents?

Not if the man of the house and father of the large family who probably is working cash in hand, isn't declared and on the books.

Assuming that "work" is legal.

Secondary age girls raise the little ones Riven and besides, are expected to be married themselves by sixteen.

And while I'm at it the fact of girls and women having no social mobility, no sexual or reproductive freedom being continually held up as a positive "moral" aspect of this culture is utterly abhorrent.

Yes I think that is true about the accents. Those women would have never really mingled with anyone outside their communities.

The girls are not educated so that they don't start getting ideas about themselves and start asking serious questions about the role that is assigned to them in life or why they must live in squalid conditions. They exist for the benefit of men. They marry young; often the marriages are arranged. ('Courtship rituals' have been shown on My Big Fat Gypsy Wedding) Life expectancy for Traveller women is much lower than other women. The culture of male entitlement is very strong in the Traveller community.

Regardless of your own personal views on the moral issues regarding traveller communities and how they chose to live, why should they be above the law? You need planning permission to build homes, even on your own land. What's difficult to understand about that?

Sorry Dromratlee I didn't mean to offend mearly saying there are only some travellers that are like this, there are some that aren't and live peaceful causing no issues, sadly be it their life choice or restrictions they haven't stood up to the bullying type to "control" their community..... hence they come against people tarnishing them with the same brush. In the same way some ignorant people tarnish all muslims......

They have to live somewhere, I accept that and agree, but they should have to follow the law like everyone else...

I personally have encountered the Dale Farm travellers on a personal level, as I've said they are okay, but I wouldn't cross them.

AryaStark is right most of the work is cash in hand..... some of the local ones here are a nightmare they put up some electric fences in one of the posher villages paid cash for the work, then the following weekend they were gone.... dodgy or what? Not the only example I know of locally!

I'd never go with an ad in the paper because you don't know if they are a traveller...... tradesman.....especially around here.

Its already cost the council a hell of a lot of money its not going to be a quick problem I dread to think of the local impact when the police try to go and evict them

From my experience of working in community mental health in deepest rural kent - traveller [romany] women have to ask their husbands permission to consult a doctor about their own health or that of their children. Permission was not infrequently with-held and some desperate women would come 'in secret' under assumed names terrified of what would happen to them if they were 'found out' seeking help from outside of the community.

I think it is bad the way that they are allowed to remain there for so long in the first place. They make the people's lives a misery who live there and who have lawfully paid for their houses. The travellers tend to turn up on a bank holiday and occupy a site illegally and then apply for planning permission.

We built an extension and we had to have planning permission before we started.You read about people who have built a home which breeches planning rules and people have to demolish it. Why are the travellers above the law?

also when they do move on they have made alot of mess and leave the taxpayer with the bill and then whilst they have resided there they have intimidated the local people.

I've seen one person posting on MN in the past who either is an Irish Traveller or is of Traveller descent. I'd like to hear her take on this.

mathanxiety seems to me to have the most informed view so far on Traveller issues.

They seem to have a very similar mentality to some muslims

My oh is a nurse and tried to attend to a traveller women who came into A&E but her men were not having her been seen to buy a male nurse I believe she was having a miscarriage

By the time they had fished threatening a doctor and kicking off the poor lass had lost so much blood she later passed away

haven't read all the posts, but at the end of the day evicting them is just going to move the problem somewhere else. And, I totally agree that this would surely have a negative impact on the children.

'haven't read all the posts, but at the end of the day evicting them is just going to move the problem somewhere else.'

And allowing them to flout the law for good sets the precedent that planning laws are only for mugs.

They should have dealt with it sooner before they made a home there. Where will they go and I was to hear a local councillor say they were prepared to discuss rehousing them in permanent houses! Why not give retrospective planning to the site and then all these spare houses they have house some locals in need? There are proposals in Brighton to set up a permanent site with facilities etc and several areas are under consideration All the guardian reading lefties are all for it until one of the sites is in the vicinity of their houses and then they freak.

And allowing them to flout the law for good sets the precedent that planning laws are only for mugs.

Absolutely-and if nothing is done it just enforces the view that the law should only be enforced when it's not too tricky or controversial to do so!

noddyholder i have noticed that, been following it in the local paper. I think they will end up in east brighton, well away from the posh people

'They should have dealt with it sooner before they made a home there.'

They did. They started legal procedings to get them off without delay, the travellers used human rights policies to drag this out for ten years. You'd have thought these lawbreakers would have moved on by now because they're supposed to be travllers, but it appears they want to settle permanently, which they do not and have never had permission for and aren't going to get, hence the evictions.

I fear you are right 2shoes

LadyClarice I think that's Beesimo you're thinking of. I'm not 100% certain what type of traveller she was but I think it was widely concluded she was of 'Completely Made Up Persona of A Crank' stock. There was a spectacular thread which involved Beesimo her daughter (DLass1 as she called herself in her charming folksy way) bravely defending her mother's way of life and charming slurs on women who use childcare.

HTH!