Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

to think that evicting hundreds of travellers from their site is unfair and immoral

1004 replies

rocketty · 31/08/2011 20:38

It's an illegal site. They didn't have planning permission. It's greenbelt...

but it used to be a car scrapyard (not rolling fields and thatched cottages then), they own the land and it's right next to a legal settlement.

They've obviously broken the law by settling here, but on balance, wouldn't it be more ethical to let them be? The children are settled at school and getting an education. Lots of people are prejudiced against gypsies and travellers but they've got to live somewhere.

I've seen the news articles about it. It makes me feel sad.

OP posts:
maypole1 · 01/09/2011 23:11

Oh so your only allowed to break the law if you can prove your traveller

WTF

MrsHairyWhitemouse · 01/09/2011 23:18

Consanguinity in relation to infant mortality is an issue. Had an interesting discussion with someone on MN who in some guise visits travellers and she said it was very hard to get statistics on this but various studies show 19%-40% of Traveller marriages are between first cousins. PKU is more common in Ireland than the rest of Europe, they also have higher instances of Galactosaemia, Glutaric Acidaemia Type I, Hurler?s Syndrome, Fanconi?s Anaemia and Type II/III Osteogenesis Imperfecta (from a Traveller website)

doesntfitin · 01/09/2011 23:24

I'm sure people wouldn't moan so much if they moved in to not so nice areas

MrsHairyWhitemouse · 01/09/2011 23:26

Combine it with a lack of education beyond primary, suspicion of authorities which include health services, an itinerant lifestyle (for those who are not settled) complicating access to maternity services...infant mortality rate is officially 3.5% higher than the national average here

maypole1 · 01/09/2011 23:31

Oh dear I think Dale farm is the least of their worries

doesntfitin · 01/09/2011 23:33

NIMBY

ragged · 02/09/2011 08:52

It's the itinerant lifestyle + distrust of authority mostly to blame, even "New Age" travellers (obv. not inbred to the same extent) suffer more health problems, shorter life expectancy than settled peoples. Romany gypsies, too, same main factors.

FellatioNelson · 02/09/2011 10:09

'This thread alone is clear evidence of why traveller communities should be discouraged anywhere.'

Well...I wouldn't go that far! They do have to live somewhere, after all. But we should be tougher about stamping out illegal encampments much earlier on, before they get anything like Dale Farm proportions.

Perhaps we should have far more regulated legal stopping sites, actually run and managed by the councils, rather than by Travellers themselves on behalf of the council which is what tends to happen now I believe. That way it is easier to nip abuses of the system in the bud before they get out of hand. the sites could be run to strict guidelines with wardens etc, just like holiday campsites are.

The sites should much more numerous (a minimum number in every county) but always kept small to reduce the ghetto effect, and so the impact on the local settled community is not such a negative one. They should be in areas that blight as few privately owned residences as possible, if they are to ever gain wider acceptance. There should be strictly enforced limits on the amount of time people are allowed to stay before they must move on. They should be available to any supposedly nomadic community, Roma, Romany, New Age, not just Irish Travellers. If they don't like that, tough. We do not live in an apartheid state.

The trouble is, Travellers these days don't actually want to travel regularly as itinerant workers, but merely want their own private gated community, full of hand-picked friends and neighbours and free from people we prefer not to mix with (and don't we all? Hmm) at a tiny fraction of the cost that the rest of us would expect to pay, even if we COULD demand such a thing. Therefore there can never be enough legal stopping sites, because no-one will bother actually giving up their legal pitch. They'll just put a static bungalow on it, and go off on long jaunts in their travelling caravan, but keep their permanent home as well, so it defeats the object. They cannot have it all their own way. If they want to use their 'travelling' heritage as a reason for special treatment then they need to actually travel, or it all becomes a bit pointless!

Any Traveller who wants to live on land he owns, and/or build permanent residental structures on it should be absolutely MADE to comply with planning regs and there should be a zero tolerance approach to flouting the law in this regard. But the only way we can do this at the earliest opportunity is to prove that there are sufficient legal sites for them to stop at, so they cannot use the 'nowhere else to go' argument. Whether they want to stop there or not, is not really any of our concern. Like someone said upthread, anyone else requiring state funded/subsidised housing does not get to be nearly so picky at the taxpayer's expense.

FellatioNelson · 02/09/2011 10:11

sorry, I meant free from people they prefer not to mix with.

Maryz · 02/09/2011 13:40

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Pendeen · 02/09/2011 13:48

It's an illegal site. They didn't have planning permission. It's greenbelt ...

so that's fairly clear then

but it used to be a car scrapyard (not rolling fields and thatched cottages then), they own the land and it's right next to a legal settlement.

but you said it's illegal and green belt so this is irrelevant

They've obviously broken the law by settling here, but on balance, wouldn't it be more ethical to let them be? The children are settled at school and getting an education. Lots of people are prejudiced against gypsies and travellers but they've got to live somewhere.

Who broke the law, who made conscious decisions to bring up their children there, continued to do so in the face of repeated atempts by the council to stop them and thus expose the to the very risks of eviction they now face?

I've seen the news articles about it. It makes me feel sad.

Me too. I feel desperately sad for the children of course but please don't hide the responsibility but instead place the blame squarely where it lies - with the idiotic parents.

Ripeberry · 02/09/2011 13:49

Funny that. Wonder how you would all feel if that site was at the bottom of your garden? They are NOT travellers, they have static homes.
There is no room in the UK for the traveling life anymore, they should obey the planning laws the same as everyone else.

Most of the caravans have not been moved for years!
The council has to do something drastic as otherwise, this kind of problem will get worse and don't forget about the true Romany people coming over from Europe, they will be all over the place and no-one will be able to move them.

There is only one law in the UK and ALL have to abide by it. If they don't like it they can all go to Belgium and camp outside the Human rights offices (bet they will move them on pronto) Hmm

Maryz · 02/09/2011 13:49

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

maypole1 · 02/09/2011 13:50

Maryz well said and just a note to add this thing people keep on saying the council have a duty to provide them a settled place to live

The council already do it's called council housing if they put them selfs of the list ten years ago they might have a place buy now

Ripeberry · 02/09/2011 13:55

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by Mumsnet.

maypole1 · 02/09/2011 13:59

I know and they need to start enforcing the education law as well bloody well pulling your girls out at 12 so they can clean the staic dear liars they need to teach these girls to read.

We have settled travellers here.

SarahStratton · 02/09/2011 14:00

So most of them own land back in Ireland? WTF aren't they living there then?

Riveninabingle · 02/09/2011 14:00

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

lachesis · 02/09/2011 14:04

In council housing, too, you have to obey rules about noise, how many animals you can keep, upkeep of the property and controlling your children. Of course, pulling your children out of school, the local authority will be expecting the parents to show they are adequately home-educating their children (teaching them to clean isn't sufficient).

FellatioNelson · 02/09/2011 14:10

Sorry MaryZ, I think you were misunderstanding me - I was saying they shouldn't be able to demand that they live in segregation, any more than any of us can.

I agree they would not like adhering to the rules, and accepting management by settled people - but they would have to obey the rules, and pay the rent, just like any other council tenant or face eviction. I would staff the small sites permanently, to avoid scenarios like you have mentioned above with theft etc. Of course I know in practice they would hate and resent that, but what else can you do? They want the state to provide sites, so it would be a form of social housing and that would have to be the deal. If they don't like it they don't have to stay.

I would not position these sites on beaches or in places of outstanding natural beauty any more than I would put any social housing in those places - I would designate land which was not especially desirable, because that is where it would be cheapest to do it.

I know that inevitably it would be unlikely to work; nothing works frankly, except giving them their own way over every demand, which ultimately, is what they want. But at least if we made moves to provide sufficient temporary sites, it would be far easier to quash their unreasonable demands in court, when it can be shown that they do indeed have somewhere to go, but they just refuse to go there, and abide by the same rules and laws as the rest of society.

somewherewest · 02/09/2011 14:10

Sarah Stratton I agree with this (and I'm also an Irish person living in the UK). No one has the right to turn up in another country and break the law. Likewise no one who isn't a genuine refugee has the right to turn up and immediately demand that accommodation be provided for them. I can understand why UK local authorities don't feel inclined to provide halting sites for newly arrived travellers from Ireland. Relations between the traveller and settled communities in Ireland could be a hell of a lot better, but travellers there do have access to benefits, social housing etc on the same basis as other Irish people.

maypole1 · 02/09/2011 14:11

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by Mumsnet.

Maryz · 02/09/2011 14:21

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Maryz · 02/09/2011 14:26

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

WhereYouLeftIt · 02/09/2011 14:31

I'm a bit ignorant on this issue; there are lots of references to them being IRISH Travellers, but does that mean they personally came from Ireland to travel in England, or are they of Irish descent? When I've heard them speak on TV their accents sound Irish, but I would imagine if they isolate themselves from wider society the accents could persist regardless?

Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.

This thread is not accepting new messages.