To be gutted by in-laws reaction to primary school decision

[Mindthegap007]

So, chatting to in-laws re future schools for DD1 (only 2 so early days, though August birthday so I think we need to be thinking about applications late next year) and mentioned we were seriously considering renting out our spacious 4-bed house in east London where local school is ok but usual challenges (high % kids english not first language etc) to much smaller property (2/3 bed flat probably, possibly with garden) in a nice part of north London where we know people and the schools are excellent. Fil said it was 'a bit desperate' and mil said we should consider fact that we will have '2 growing girls who will need space'. Yes, space is nice, but overall I feel a really good school is more important. Feel more disappointed/hurt than I probably should about this and not sure why. Think it's because they think I'm being a snob. Genuinely want my kids to be exposed to difference/diversity but not a expense of their education (that perennial dilemma). Probably overreacting as sleep deprived (dd2 6 months and still feeding through night) but really want to be supported in this decision rather than criticized. Btw, DP is sort of supportive but largely because he's so easygoing (I tend to make most of the decisions about most things!)

Cailin, how can a teacher give the amount of time necessary to properly deliver the subject material, if the class has lots of pupils in it who are still learning the language. Surely much of the time will be spent ensuring that they are following what is going on? Even when you have lots of specialist classroom assistants delivery of the material is bound to be affected.

There is a difference between having lots of pupils who speak English as a second language, but who do speak and understand it and having lots of pupils who don't speak a word. If the OP's child is placed in a class with the latter, then of course they are not going to get the same education that they would receive in a class where language is not a factor, because everyone speaks the same one.

There are more parks and green spaces in London than in any other European city, JustAnother.

Dogs - I would like my children to be educated in classes of no more than 20 children. All well behaved. I'd like them to be able to learn Latin and play Lacrosse. After-all this is how the children of the elite in the uk are usually educated. I definitely don't want them to have to share their learning experience with thick kids as this might slow the pace of their learning.

And I definitely shouldn't have to compromise on what I want for my children despite the fact that I can't afford private education.

Really

I think folk should remember that the potential language issue is just one of the OP's concerns.

Her local school has just come out of special measures. As such it's entirely possible that the teaching is substandard and/or child behaviour is a major issue... or any of a number of issues outside of the OPs control which she might not want to subject her child to.

I will never understand why on earth would a parent send their child to a struggling, sub-standard school when they have perfectly good alternatives, even if they do come at the cost of some form of sacrifice to that parent.

But it's not just sacrifice to the parent - moving to a flat involves sacrifice and disruption to the children as well. It might be justified, but it's not a simple "if you loved your DC you'd do this".

mindthegap Your child your choice imho. Don't argue the toss withthe in-laws though 'cos you might need their help later on. You never know what's around the corner. Just plod on with your longterm plan. It's good that you are planning ahead.
I was faced with similar circumstances three years ago and went for education of children above all else. They only get one shot at their education. Once they've grown up it's too late.

spud, it depends how much you're prepared to sacrifice, not how much money you have.

When it was necessary and the alternative was a sink estate school my children had an education which included Latin, with classes of under 20, all well behaved, no "thick" children, as you put it. No lacrosse, admittedly. I was never fond of it myself and didn't want to subject my DDs to it.

I home educated .

I don't understand why moving to a flat is considered such a hardship. The OP has 2 girls who can share a bedroom, as lots of children do without trauma. They live in London, with plenty of parks, museums, galleries etc. They will not be deprived of either space or entertainment. There is not a huge amount of disruption involved in moving from one part of the city to another part of the same city. I did it many times as a child and appear to be okay.

Thanks again for comments - the Good, Bad and Ugly (not the really ugly - to be accused of being a snob I expected, to be accused of racism because I'd like my kids to go to a good school is idiotic). Having read comments (and having had a wee nap!) I see that I ABU re in-laws . They are lovely and of course have every right to express they're opinion. I suppose, as someone mentioned I'm just not sure what the best thing is to do but, perhaps naively thought in-laws would value a good school over an extra bedroom/perhaps living on one level. We wouldn't be in a teeny tiny place (probably the same size as the flat I grew up in) and I think it would be just fine.
Agree I need to research local schools more and perhaps become more questioning about Ofsted reports.
Re accusations of enjoying benefits of multicultural London then 'getting out' when it suits, I could detail how we contribute to our community etc but no doubt would be accused of being smug. I won't apologize for wanting my dcs to have the best education we can manage to provide for them (and I mean academically AND socially and culturally) and I suspect if many of the posters live where we do and had the apparent choices we do, they'd also be getting a little nervous. Whether a school is good or not good (however you define 'good') is of course not simple, and is due to a host of factors - class size, social mix of kids, parental expectations, quality of teaching and, yes, often whether or not the majority of children can speak English well. Fact. It's for all these reasons that the local school doesn't seem that appealing, however we definitely need to work a bit harder at checking this out before making a decision. Anyway, loaadds of time to do research and mull over options. Some really helpful/kind comments which I've taken on board though, so many thanks.

Anyway, spud, I was actually speaking in a wider sense. I'm a firm believer in campaigning and voting for change within our state education system, many of the schools within which are failing our children.

I don't believe that we shoudl sit on our bottoms and accept what we and out DC are given and I sure as hell don't think that it's a good thing for us as parents to feel that we have to make compromises in our children's education. That's something which certainly should be challenged.

OP - I think you're thinking of looking to live somewhere near me. But we warned that it's very overpopulated and if you are going to take this risk you need to pretty much rent in the same street at your school.

I live in a two bed flat (no garden) and it suits us fine. Yup would love to live in a house but it's a non runner in this area for us. I like it here - it's where I'm from. The primary schools are generally good and N. London is far more diverse than many other parts of london.

It's a tough decision but we'll be on the move when ds applies for secondary. We'll rent out our flat and rent somewhere for ourselves. We're not doing this to avoid schools in our area but as we're not in the catchment for any non selective we'll need to uproot a few hundred metres to ensure ds can continue his education in our community and not be faced with an hour long journey each way using bus/tube to go to a school the other end of the borough and me having to give up work.

I also believe that if we all just went to our local schools it would be better all round. Many of us now don't have a local school that's non selective. People miles away want their kids to come to our local faith schools and they can which means the kids of non-faith folk are left with the odd comp with tiny catchment areas which means our kids are being pushed a very long way away from their local communities.

We lost a couple of kids from ds's class at the end of last term. Older siblings were allocated secondary schools miles away and how does a lone parent be at two different places at one at once - how do they work - how do they organise childcare in two different areas. Two of the kids that left were sent overseas as that was the only option the parents felt they had.

OP - go with what you think is right for your family. Ignore everyone else. I'd love it for my kid to continue right up until 18 in our community but the current system won't allow it unless I move. Don't relish it.

But we DO have to make compromises in every other part of our life. Why should our children's education be different.

Many people cannot afford to go private, move house or home educate. It's insulting of you to imply that those people are simply not making enough effort.

I wonder how many of the people judging the OP have been in her situation. I'd take better education over large house any day.

We moved from East London too. The local school, which was very well run, had a very high proportion of children that spoke no English on arrival, and the infant years were spent teaching English. Children who already spoke it got bored. Teachers have to cater to the majority and if the majority have no English then that is their priority. That is an unstimulating educational start for a child who is already fluent. Not racist, just obvious!

Also, my one friend who stayed (everyone I knew moved out within three years) admitted her son was desperately lonely. The other mums were racist. They didn't want their children playing with a white boy. He was never invited to parties or to play in their homes and the other children didn't make much of an effort to befriend him.

OP's not racist at all, just practical. As to in-laws - well they won't agree with everything you do, so may as well toughen up now. They're entitled to valid concerns. But it's your family, your decision.

I don't think it's 'desperate'. It wouldn't be my choice but you're just doing what you feel is right. Some things are their business - I don't think this is really one of them.

I'm an East Londoner too and we've made the opposite decision. We're staying put and sending the kids locally at the moment. Our situation's complicated but if we left the area DH would never see the kids because of the odd hours of his job. To uproot us all and take the kids away from the only community, friends and home they've ever known is just too much of a risk if the local school proves to be a good option long term. I absolutely resent the implication (not said on here but voiced on other threads) that we are somehow not 'doing the best' for our children when I feel that for my kids, at this age, seeing their dad as much as possible and feeling part of a strong loving community is more important than going to a school that has great SATs results. Maybe I'll change my mind in future but this feels right now .

If it's the wrong choice and we don't like the way school's turning out we'll deal with it then - home ed, independent, whatever works and whatever we can do. And beware moving anywhere solely based on schooling. I've seen too many horror stories on here of people moving somewhere because they thought it was in catchment for a desirable school and not getting in because of siblings that year or something. So the whole enterprise ends up being futile, disruptive and very very expensive.

Good luck OP. This will probably be the first of many differences you'll have with them so stick to your guns if you feel this is right for you.

"I wonder how many of the people judging the OP have been in her situation. I'd take better education over large house any day."

Where is there EVIDENCE that the op's child will get a better education from being in the classroom alongside only native speakers?

"the infant years were spent teaching English"

I should imagine the infant years were spent teaching the national curriculum, like they do in every other state primary.

Do we really need evidence to prove something that is just common sense?

And it is about more than just the teaching. The social time out of school and the time spent in the playground is equally as important, especially at infant stage.

OP I am assuming where you currently live as I used to live there. I downsized to north London when my DC started school. Huge difference in quality of life, much smaller house and 2 meter 'garden' meant I got similar comments from parents. But my DC has open spaces, can actually GO to the local parks without dodging the benchies/cans of special brew/pit bulls. We have a variety local shops other than a row of pound shops and its still a very diverse area. Where (I assume) you are is not diverse, its seriously deprived.

We made the right decision. If you have doubts about staying where you are now, you'll end up moving anyway when it comes to Primary/Secondary School. imo just sell up and move to what you can afford. The price gap will only get wider with regeneration.

Why North London, it must be one of the most expensive parts of the UK - there are places with good schools elsewhere in London area

I would judge the school on how it feels when you visit rather then OFSTEDs etc. Know from experience and the experiences of friends that the schools that are often popular (with good OFSTEDs) aren't always as good as they seem. There is one in my area and after fighting to get their kids in there, a lot have realised their error and are moving them elsewhere.

I should imagine the infant years were spent teaching the national curriculum, like they do in every other state primary.

Spudulika, they weren't. The head teacher made it clear that her infant school staff had to adapt the NC to cater for the fact that the children arrived at school not only knowing no English but often having never been anywhere other than home and the shops. They had no general understanding of books, music, playparks even when they lived next door to one. Under these circumstances a school can do wonders, but not for the kids who've been pushed on swings and read to since birth. That child will thrive better in an environment which, in the main, assumes that level of parental action, and will educate beyond it.

I'm not doubting the school's ability. It had an outstanding reputation in bringing its pupils in line with the NC average by the time they left.
I agree there's no evidence at all that a child will get better education at a school simply because it's predominantly white. But if you care about what kind of education your child gets, and that education isn't available where you currently live, I think it's perfectly reasonable and rational and not in the least offensive to anyone else if you hunt down a school that offers what you're after and make changes or compromises so they can go to that school.

I think one of the issues can be if a significant number of the EAL children all come from the same culture then the benefits of diversity are lost because the school isn't truely diverse.

We have gone down the private route but the DS's school has at least half the pupils from minority backgrounds so it is still mixed but there is no dominant subculture. If we had sent the DS's to the local community schools they would have been part of the dominant non-English speaking minority and I am concerned that they could have become part of a largely monocultural playground clique.

Have you been to look at the local school?

I live in an inner city area and my dc's go to a school like the one near you. The teaching is outstanding and the school very well run.

At primary level mixing with other middle class kids isn't that important when it comes to achievement.

So, you want to cheat?

Sell your house and move.

GHOST THREAD ALERT

"I'm not doubting the school's ability. It had an outstanding reputation in bringing its pupils in line with the NC average by the time they left."

Oh - so the school is well run and teaching standards are excellent.

They're just not up to teaching your children because your children are simply too clever for them?

My children's school is similar to the one which is not good enough for your children. Every year there will be children from their school get bursaries at local (very good) private schools. That's children from ordinary families - the kids of postmen and bus drivers. There are fantastically bright children at every school, who achieve highly. As long as they're supported well at home.