To be gutted by in-laws reaction to primary school decision

[Mindthegap007]

So, chatting to in-laws re future schools for DD1 (only 2 so early days, though August birthday so I think we need to be thinking about applications late next year) and mentioned we were seriously considering renting out our spacious 4-bed house in east London where local school is ok but usual challenges (high % kids english not first language etc) to much smaller property (2/3 bed flat probably, possibly with garden) in a nice part of north London where we know people and the schools are excellent. Fil said it was 'a bit desperate' and mil said we should consider fact that we will have '2 growing girls who will need space'. Yes, space is nice, but overall I feel a really good school is more important. Feel more disappointed/hurt than I probably should about this and not sure why. Think it's because they think I'm being a snob. Genuinely want my kids to be exposed to difference/diversity but not a expense of their education (that perennial dilemma). Probably overreacting as sleep deprived (dd2 6 months and still feeding through night) but really want to be supported in this decision rather than criticized. Btw, DP is sort of supportive but largely because he's so easygoing (I tend to make most of the decisions about most things!)

have you actually visited the schools? Are you basing your decisions on real fact or what others say about them? Often schools with high % of children where English not first language understand the need to help each individual child with each of their individual challenges. Even YOUR children will have those.... whereas "nice" schools in "nice places" can be quite complacent (ok, making a generalisation...) Not sure you've really looked into it fully? Apologies if you have. CHildren spend way more time at home than they do at school so you have to think about their overall experience. If you have genuine proof that the teaching is way inferior at your local school, then that's a different matter. Otherwise, think you're probably being a bit snobby, even perhaps a bit racist TBH

I would urge you to go with what you want. I've taught in a lot of schools and the best one I ever taught in was a school where 99% of the children were from Indian/African/Pakistani/Polish/Afghani families. The results weren't fantastic as a lot of children had difficulties with English but there was a wonderful atmosphere there and the children were the nicest I've ever come across. IMO the reason for that is that local British-heritage parents like you avoided the school like the plague and took their narrow minded attitudes elsewhere to the "good" schools where in my experience the atmosphere was pressurised, unfriendly and horrible for the kids due to pushy parents whose biggest nightmare was that their children might be less than absolutely perfect.

YABU to be "gutted". Their opinion is irrelevant. You cannot expect to be supported by your PILs or parents in every decision you make. They just may disagree with you - that doesn't mean you are wrong.

(sorry, took phone call mid-post, see you've provided more info meanwhile)

Personally I can't imagine prioritising a big house/garden etc over my children's education. There are other points people have made on here regarding whether you'd get in, whether the schools will actually be better, value of diversity, which would be worthy of consideration (for me). But not the size of the property in and of itself.

We have also considered moving out of London, but both have good jobs in London and so far nothing has come up in areas we would consider moving to. Obviously still have a year or so to continue to search though. Acknowledge the argument re quality of life, but i don't feel this would be compromised, in fact feel it might be enhanced if moving to a nicer area, closer to friends with more green spaces/activities for kids etc. Also realise we'd have to be within a few roads of an excellent school, which we could afford and still get a decent sized place. We'd plan to rent for the long term - not a quickie rental to just get them into a good school.

Sounds grim, TBH.
Living in a rented flat whilst you rent out your own home to god knows who.

You've loads of time, why not just move properly?

I understand you wanting to move for your children's education. We sent our eldest DS to the local school for Nursery and Reception and were not impressed ... by the time he started Yr 1 we had moved house to a town 8 miles away where the schooling was better, not just for Primary but for Secondary education.
My DH's siblings even moved to Kent for the Grammar Schools!

However, remember, if you rent out your house you will have to pay tax on the income. Once you have paid the mortgage (assuming you have one) and insurance plus rent on another property you might find yourself out of pocket?
Would it not make more sense to sell up and move? In which case you need to think about Secondary education as well: It comes round faster than you might think.

Genuinely want my kids to be exposed to difference/diversity

Where would you like this to happen if you're avoiding it in the classroom?

When you go round to visit ask if you can stay in the classrooms for a decent length of time. We did this when we were looking at secondary schools and it was very eyeopening. Much better than a normal quick guided tour. It was also very telling whether the head/deputy wanted to stay in with you. This should generate better behaviour? My favourite school was where where the head even said he wouldn't stay because of that reason (that was a previously failing school). The worse school IMO (a good school according to Ofstead!)had children misbehaving in several classes despite the deputy head being there. You will then be in a much better position to decide. No decent school will say no to this request.

Thanks harriett - you're right. Need to brace myself for the fray that is the education system I think! Think I have been influence about what others have said about local schools (usual east London horror stories . . .)
North London was a choice because we have friend there and we're familiar with it - simple as that really. Get the impression it's no worse or better than many other areas with good schools.

Hadn't considered tax implications of renting out house, so food for thought there . . .
We'd prefer to rent house out rather than sell as it's in an area where there's a lot of regeneration going on so hopefully everything around it will improve in the long-term (including schools, as secondary schools much worse than primary) and if house price increases exponentially to other parts of London (as is predicted) we 'd also be able to consider moving out to decent part of commuter belt in the long-term and keep similar size house. Basically, we feel it gives us more choices.

Ilovesooty - the school we're looking at is still mixed (admittedly not quite so mixed), but much smaller without the high turnover of kids. Also, as we live in London, and regularly use public transport, visit friends in South and central London etc we are exposed to diversity every day. The cultural mix of London is one of the reasons we love London and are less keen to move out.

Good advice Shewhowines - will definitely keep this in mind . .

Watching people from other cultures walk past you doesn't really count as "being exposed to diversity" IMO. I am utterly shocked at how racist Britain is - I would never have thought a family would actually uproot themselves to a smaller house in order to avoid mixing with "diverse" people on the assumption that mixing in this way will do irreparable damage to their children

Another poster has already pointed out some of the expenses associated with letting your current home.

You'd also need to let you mortgage company know that you are intending to let the property. They may wish to transfer you across to a buy to let mortgage which will most likely have a significantly higher interest rate.

It's not impossible to do what you are planning but there are lots of issues to take into consideration.

I've just fallen of my chair after reading about 'using public transport and getting exposed to diversity'.

In my experience, if your DD's are bright and given all the input they need at home they may be happier at your local school. Granted, the results of the school overall may not be as good, once you remove the students from NESB from the statistics I'm sure you'll be relieved to see that it is not all bad news.

I went to a so called 'bad' schools and one of the best (state) primary schools in England and of course was happier and made more progress at the 'bad' school. The parents of kids at 'good' schools hate to see someone beating the system. They will work you out and your kids will probably be living somewhere less desirable than the majority of their classmates. A flat is unsuitable for parties or more than one friend over at a time. Most depressing, other parents often (inadvertently or intentionally) influence who their children are friends with.

"I am utterly shocked at how racist Britain is - I would never have thought a family would actually uproot themselves to a smaller house in order to avoid mixing with "diverse" people on the assumption that mixing in this way will do irreparable damage to their children"

FGS the OP is not moving to avoid "diverse people", she's moving to provide her DD with a decent education!

FWIW my own children, as said upthread, didn't go to the local school - no way was that ever going to happen. They went to an out of catchment school with 100% results, a fantastic ethos, which was upheld by committed caring staff and pupils.

And it was a feck site more diverse than the local crap school in my catchment area! It is possible to have both you know!

Had it not been, well tough, because I won't sacrifice MY children on the altar of someone else's idealism. If the OP views it similarly I salute her.

I agree with your pil, as it happens. And I have two children in a mixed London primary school Ofsted rated 'satisfactory'. They are fine.

My God I'm laughing with you, Laquitar. I probably just wasted my time typing up a response, didn't I?

In which case, I have the following to add: Education is about far more than producing a certain set of results and socialising your DD's with a certain type of child. They can achieve academically at any school with interested teachers, if they are so inclined.

It seems to me that a lot of parents fall into the trap of thinking that the overall results of a school reflect the teaching, not the opportunities, a child has in life beyond school.

Of course kids who come from less economically privileged backgrounds where English is not their first language are not going to perform so well on standardised tests. They are obviously going to struggle a bit. Your DD's do not have these disadvantages.

Have you ever considered that if everyone stopped moving themselves to live within the catchment area for a 'better' schools, their local school would improve? At present your selfish and misguided attitude towards education will only increase an already divided society.

Oh, and by the way, you are upset by your pils comments because you feel GUILTY.

"usual challenges (high % kids english not first language etc)"

NOT moving the avoid diversity? I really cannot think of any (high %) examples of children who do not speak English as a first language being anything but marginalised minorities.

You cannot enjoy the benefits of a multicultural society without accomodating migrants and ethnic communities. There has to be some give and take.

Public transport / other parts of London comment solely meant to illustrate that kids won't be surprised by difference as they see it every day. I have small nieces living in the country who visit as point/stare when they see a hijab / black face. Don't want that for my kids. Of course not same as knowing people from different cultures /backgrounds but was mindful of getting flamed for 'Some if our best friends are . . .'. And again, the school we are thinking of is mixed