to think it's not "men" who are the problem...

[TheFlyingOnion]

inspired by many threads recently, but mostly in the "Relationships" topic...

I read so many statements along the lines of "men always put themselves first", "what do you expect, men always want...." etc etc.

AIBU to think its not MEN that are the problem, its THIS man! MEN don't always put themselves first, THIS man is putting himself first, MEN don't always leave the children stuff to the wives, THIS man does!!

If any man ever wrote "oh, women ALWAYS etc etc" I think we would be up in arms, no?

Let's get some perspective and admit that SOME men are wrong un's but this does not mean that ALL men should be tarred with the same brush.

I think I'm probably not BU, but I will ask anyway, AIBU?

YANBU
I always point out the double standards.
Generally a woman is having trouble with a man- advice=leave him.
Man having similar trouble with woman-advice=selfish devil, show a bit of understanding!

It seems to me that women treat him like a DC and then complain that they get an extra DC!
You have 2 adults-both with no experience of babies and small DCs and the woman is immediately 'expert' and 'allows' him to do things with the baby!

Someone has a DH or DP who is irresponsible, or can't cook , pick up his own towel etc etc etc and it is assumed that we all have men like that.

YANBU at all

Glad to see this thread. The stereotyping depresses me enormously, as a feminist, because it actually enables male bad behaviour (in individual men, rather than in the sex as a whole, obviously). People - and I very much mean both sexes here - are often alarmingly eager to behave according to the cultural cues they're given. And insofar as I've read the threads in the MN feminist forum (am a fairly new arrival), I would say there's a lot of impressive feminist discussion there, and very little man-bashing. There's a lot of criticism of patriarchy, obviously, but it's not the same thing at all.

It's easy for people to generalise off their own limited experience, I do think. My mother, for example, bases her view of men in general (emotionally inarticulate, prefer iron-clad routine, uneasy with women, only real pleasure discussing detailed techie stuff with other like-minded men) entirely on my dad, who is like that, and is the only man she really knows. But I recently realised, when researching autism, that my dad is somewhere on the Asperger's spectrum - he's far from representative of all men, but because that's all she knows, he represents her world view of 'what men are like'.

i agree with sunshine

i also recognise that what is expected of men and women is different., i loath the men can not change a nappy, put a wash on and cook sort of attitude, the what about the poor menz whenever an issue that prediomatly effects women and children is debated, the majority of our media being misogynist and when women do stand together to try and make changes and highlight struggles women are facing they are more often than not called man haters

if i am honest this all annoys me far more than men are all cheaters, men are lazy because it is not som3thing i beleive (though have known a few of both sex) and it does not hold and has never held men back

I have a friend who knowingly goes for men who treat her badly (she likes the thrill apparently ) and then talks as if all men are like that. Drives me nuts.

Stupid thing is, if she meets a man who isn't an absolute waste of space and a cunt, then she derides him as "not a real man".

Bloody idiot.

Thank god her two sons ignore her!

Something has to change really.

So when a woman meets a man who cannot cook, clean, shop for gifts or plan things effectively, what is she finding attractive about him? I'd run a bloody mile, but then before you know where you are, she's married him, had a few kids and complaining he doesn't cook, clean, buy her a birthday gift etc.
Errr...hello.
Women: stop raising boys in this fashion.
Women: stop shagging and marrying them.
Things would soon change.

What Gay40 said!

Don't start with the "not all men" and "not all women" bollocks either - I know this already.

Yes, exactly Gay40. My DP does "his fair share" of the housework, i.e. 50% (we both work FT). I've occasionally had the "aren't you lucky!" remarks about this. Errr, no. Luck is nothing to do with it. If he didn't think it was right that we should divide household chores like this, then I wouldn't be with him. Basta.

Gay40 Absolutely! But I suppose what this putative woman is finding attractive about this non-cooking, non-cleaning, non-planning caveman is down to her own internalised ideas, absorbed from social cues, about what constitutes a 'real man'...? See for instance all those maddening women's magazine articles about fancying 'bad boys', rather than the 'sweet but unsexy' more domestic types. Or those dismaying 'pick-up artist' type books and courses for men who want to learn to be 'alpha males' by being trained in treating women badly.

I think a fair amount of social recalibration will be needed for people to be educated out of those kinds of retrogressive attitudes. I agree about the not shagging or raising those kinds of men, and not believing in the 'women are from Mars, men are from Venus' (or is the other way round?) nonsense. Men are not biologically hard-wired to be idiots.

YANBU. Really annoys me.

Theala, well said. My partner and I share all household chores, with him doing all the cooking, and while I appreciate it, I get irritated at my mother's total bafflement and awe when she sees him hanging up laundry or making bread, as if the possession of testicles somehow makes the peroformance of any domestic work miraculous! But then, her expectations and mine are both generational.

I'm not sure I'd find a man who could clean and shop for gifts particularly sexy if I'm honest - looks and personality are what most people fall in love with - his ability to flick a duster around and buy a nice card for his mother wouldn't impress me at all.

And op - Yanbu - most men are fantastic.

carminagoesprimal So you don't find it sexy if a man is able to pick out the perfect gift for you?

I'm not particularly 'impressed' by or attracted to DPs ability to clean up and buy gifts for his family, those are certainly not inherently 'sexy' or interesting thingsl. But, I'd be quite unhappy if he expected me to do those things for him, just because I'm female!

You don't have to be impressed by these things, it's just normal adult managing-your-life stuff that I'd expect any grown up to be able to get on wtih doing. The inability or unwillingness to do them would not make a man more attractive, and would certainly make him more annoying to live with.

But carminagoesprimal, it's not a matter of being able to dust or buy mother's day cards, which require no skill whatsoever - anyone can do either.

Let me rephrase - would you be attracted to a man who was labouring under the delusion that because you are the woman, you will do all the housework in your marriage, and take care of managing his relationship with his family, because that's 'woman's work'? Because to me, this imaginary man sounds like a bit of a pillock. Someone with those kinds of ideas about the sexual division of labour wouldn't push my buttons very far.

Yanbu. It's total twattery and incredibly annoying. But I bet it's worse on netmums...

I agree OP. Most men are competent at doing most things if you just let them get on with it. I am sure some women behave in a way that enables their men to be a bit lazy too. I have seen women tell their husbands how to do things and inwardly I am screaming "just let him get on with it".

Ya know. sunshineandbooks is just about getting on my imaginary tits.

She comes on threads with illuminous wisdom, takes care to recognise all sides, is never less than even-tempered and doesn't personalise anything. Right on my imaginary tits!

and the FS appears to be a bit better thought out than MN boards in general, esp. on this stuff.

It's one of the things that makes anti feminists really angry with feminists. Some women really like having completely useless men, it makes them feel powerful and useful. They don't like it at all if anyone suggests they are colluding with the infantilism of men!

Ephiny and HardCheese have it bang on. I don't look at my partner unloading the dishwasher and think "Fooaaarrr! The way he's putting those plates into the cupboard is making me hottt."

However, I would think of a man who expected me to 'mother' him by picking up his shit off the floor, "WTF is wrong with you? Cop on to yourself and grow up, you big baby."

BTW, neither of us buy mother's day cards. Problem sorted.

"I'm not sure I'd find a man who could clean and shop for gifts particularly sexy if I'm honest"

It's not sexy.

But not being able to, essentially being a small helpless child, is so much of a turn off!

AliGrylls, you are so right. My DH became a hell of a lot more helpful when I realised that I was forever telling him how I would do/have done some task. I stopped and he just gets on with stuff now.

YANBU