AIBU to feel that this is totally unfair?

[WomanDriver]

Ok basically my 21yo brother has just moved in to a student house with three other student guys. One of his housemates (also 21) lives quite far away (up north)from the uni and has 2 kids at home with his gf.

When they took the student property everyone had decided on bedrooms ect. Then a few weeks later this guy decided his room wasn't big enough as he wanted his gf and kids to stay at some point(one is 8months and the other is 3 yo) and needed to fit a double bed and a single bed and a cot??!? He wanted to turn their living room into a bedroom for himself which the others comprimised and agreed on.

Originally the others had agreed for this guy to have his gf and 2 kids come down for a few days here and there when it was convenient (eg no assignment deadlines or exam periods). However my brother has just found out this guy plans to bring his gf and kids down in october for a FEW weeks!!
Him and the other guys dont really want young kids under their feet for that long (they are student guys after all) and dont know what to do. They say they would feel very uncomfortable and also dont feel that the house is baby proof (as you would expect a student house to be).

They have recently found out that their housemate has got his gf pregnant again which means that there will be a newborn baby in their house as well as two other kids. AND this guy expects his gf to travel from up north to south london on train with these children as well.

AIBU to feel that my brother and his two friends are being given a raw deal by this third mate?

I think your brother has to accept that this guy will not be friends with them by Christmas, whatever happens.

I think the three of them need to go to the landlord again and tell him exactly what the other guy is planning. The landlord let to 4 people, not 5 people and three children.

If the student with the family has the living room then he should pay more rent, anyway. It's ridiculous that they pay the same as him for much smaller rooms.

The best bet would be for the landlord to accept the man with the family should leave and that the others should find a replacement.

Why not just behave like 'proper' students? In my 3 student houses the communal areas were always a haze of smoke, not necessarily legal smoke, there were pyramids of empty beer cans everywhere, there was loud chatter and music until 3am most nights, a steady stream of strangers coming and going, and plenty of detritus left lying around that would definitely not be baby-safe. Tell your brother to behave like the worst kind of sterotypical student, then see if the GF still wants to move in with the children. If he dares to tell your DB not to behave like that, your DB will have the perfect grounds to point out this is a student house, not a family home, and as a rent payer he has the right to behave as he likes in his home.

Tell him to go to the student uni, they might be able to help him get out of the contract, Landlords in student towns often need to be recommended by the union.

Also, this man is taking the piss - tell him No! If the other bloke won't see sense, your brother is going to have to get tough. Tell your brother to tell him they will call the landlord every day she is there with the children to complain. Tell your brother to tell this feckless father they will tell his girlfriend the full amount he spends on every night out and every purchase he makes - so she can see he's choosing not to support his children. That should be a good start...

It might be easier to get this bloke to move out and find a replacement for him.

Firstly I think the 3 boys should reclaim their living room. They allowed it to be used as a bedroom under certain circumstances, which are now being exploited. The amount they pay for rent takes into account their use of the whole house, which they are no longer getting, so when the flatmate is out, they need to relocate all his stuff back to the original bedroom.

They then need to start treating the house exactly the same way they would if the gf and dc were not there. She will soon have enough of this and bugger off again. Tell the flatmate, that, sure, his gf can stay, but only in his room, not all spread out over the entire house.

This sounds to me like an idea that neither the flatmate or the gf have really thought through properly. without the consent of the other flatmates and land lord, it is akin to squatting.

Another thing to consider is whose name the utilities are in. Your brother and his mates don't want to get landed with huge electricity or phone bills

Sorry if anyone has suggested this already but I recommend your bro takes his contract down to the CAB and has a chat with them. They'll be able to advise him on his rights and also what he/they might be liable for with regards to council tax etc.

Also, even if they don't cave the guy should be paying a LOT more rent if he now a) has a larger room than anyone and b) (and more importantly IMO) they no longer have a nice large lounge as a living space. A lot of students draw lots to see who gets the best rooms etc. and pay the same rent but if they are paying the same amount for what is actually a different layout this is distinctly unfair. I would also suggest the guy contributes to a higher proportion of the bills when his gf is there. Also speak to the landlord re: insurance etc. and then send a letter summarising their discussions in WRITING, including what the landlord has agreed to. If he isn't helping then that needs to be stated in the letter too.

Another option is to also visit the university's accommodation department, they may be able to offer help and advice.

All the above things can be done without falling out (at this point) with the idiot piss taker that your brother is sharing with.

Karma has it down to a tee!

Every student is entitled to the occasional overnight guest......but in their bed and normally between the hrs of 2am and 9am (lol).

On a serious note, I was a mature student, complete with husband and 2 DC's. We recieved no council tax or TV license reduction because of that. Given that we were making uni work around us and I didn't have a 'student' lifestyle that was fine for the kids as I would work mon 8am- fri 3pm on uni work unless exams were coming up and we still had time for normal family life......ie, ballet lessons, tennis lessons, long walks etc.....not family stuck in one room, sharing a bathroom with 3 adult males and booze everywhere!

Kids can't be expected to live in 'student' conditions and I would like to think that the local health visitor would agree. Perhaps a call and a rather ill-timed visit (no pre-warning, when the house is in a true student state?).

Yes, they should reclaim their living room. It's appalling that he has that and they have to share a tiny living room. This presumably means he will then have the tiny bedroom.

They need to get tough with him and tell him that their rights outweigh his needs.

I would advise your brother to go to the Student Union Housing Officer to ask their advice.

The other tenant will be, I would imagine, breaking the terms of their contract by having the gf and children to stay for an extended period of time. Your db and the others may well have already broken the contract by turning a communal room into a bedroom.

Your brother, and the others, essentially need to say no, to anything other than a one or two night stay. They then need to again apporach the landlord - it is the landlord who is responsible for ensuring that his tenants are keeping to their contract.
I would imagine that, if the short stay turned into a longer one, and the landlord did nothing about it, the other tenants could think about withdrawal of their rent, but I woul dnot do this without legal advice.

Just a quick question, did these students rent the whole house together, at the same time, or has your brother 'moved in'?

I would tell your bro to look after no one.

1- Put it in writing to the landlord about the situation and asking the LL to enforce the tenancy rules.
2- Look for a single room in a shared flat/house elsewhere
3-Talk to student housing they may have a single room
4- Talk to tutor too to make them aware of the situation.
5- Tell housemate that GF cannot come and stay with children for any longer than 2 nights , there is not enough room. If he doesn't like it he can move out.
6- Get utilities etc in everyones name.
7- Get the living room back to bedroom.

Thanks so much for the advice guys :). Just to clarify the reason why I am so concerned about this is that I am a guarenteur(sp?) for my DB's tenency agreement/contract. So would like to get this sorted to avoid me getting hassle off the landlord iyswim.

Seenbutnotheard: they were all friends previous to finding the house.

I'm going to ring the landlord today I think. Is this U? It's just I am concerned I am going to be liable for rent if my brother leaves or is kicked out because his mate is breaking the clauses set out in the tenancy agreement.

yes you could call the ll but give your bro warning!

Oh, just a thought, is there a fire in the old living room/new bedroom? If it's a gas fire, having that in a bedroom would invalidate the landlord's safety certificate if it was done on the understanding that room was a living room. Might be worth checking. The landlord could throw him out of the room because of that.

Sod that. I'd be witholding rent. If the house was listed as student housing then surely the contract is being breeched. It does sound like your brother and his friends have got MUG tattooed on their foreheads though. And I agree with others. They should live the student life to the full without any consideeration to this guy's family.

On another note, this GF must be a screw loose to want to move herself and her babies into this house in the first place, even for "only a few weeks." I'd rather sleep in a drain than move in with a bunch of student guys.

Seems to me like the guy has a plan - turn student accom into his family home.

I think your brother should talk to the landlord and say that the contract he signed was based on a certain agreement - student accom, x number of people... and if the landlord allows these extra people, then the contract is breeched.

I am NOT a legal expert. I'm just saying that that's what I'd say, hoping it sounded convincing and like it could be real (it might be, for all I know!)

Or say to the mate that due to his behaviour and his intention to move other people in, you are going to discuss with the landlord that the contract is void and plan to move out, leaving him with all the rent.

Again, not a legal expert. But it might work?

Or he could go to the students' union and talk to them? They have advisors who might know the actual legal position

Or he could say to the guy look, do NOT expect us to change how we live in our own home while your family is here. we will NOT be tiptoeing round the children, we will NOT allow you to take over the house. We will be the same as we are now and don't you DARE try to complain about it.

Intuitively, a lot would depend on whether the LL has 4 individual contracts with the 4 guys (in which case he's instrumental to sorting this out as, potentially, 3 of his tenants are about to walk), a single contract with the 4 of them as a group (in which case whilst he might be able to help its much more down to them to sort it out between themselves) or a contract with one of them for "him and 3 friends" (which is unlikely, but the only circumstance I can see where the BF might be able to dictate terms to his flatmates). Either way I think they should be open with the LL about how use of the flat is being changed to avoid being in the position of breaching the contract unintentionally. If the contract is ambiguous (or is in the name of the BF only) then seeking advice from the SU is a very good idea. If decent student accommodation is so hard to find then it shouldn't be hard to get a replacement should circumstances dictate that the BF leaves.

Have the 3 of them sat down and talked to the BF and pointed out that he's now taking the mickey big time and they aren't happy about it? I might have read it wrong, but the impression I've got is that he's declared these things are happening and the other three have, more or less, agreed without really talking about it too much. I'm awful for playing devil's advocate, but if it were me I'd want to be completely sure that he had engaged brain, understood the impact his requests/demands were going to have on his flatmates and was doing this deliberately (and thereby give him the option to be reasonable and preserve some kind of harmony between the four of them) before going in all guns blazing (which will almost certainly result in a big rift).

That said, I'm struggling to see how he can really think that moving his girlfriend and family into a student house for "a few weeks" is likely to work well for anyone - I don't see how it can fail to upset his flat mates (who'll be expected to respect the young family), the girl friend (who will get fed up sharing with students), the children (who'll probably have disturbed sleep) and himself (who'll be caught in the middle of it all). I do wonder what he's told the GF and what she's expecting when she comes compete with kids, but I wouldn't be surprised if he's been flexible with the truth. I also wouldn't be entirely surprised if his definition of "a few weeks" were "10 weeks in the autumn, 10 weeks after Xmas and 10 weeks after Easter", or thereabouts :(.

Either way, I think the best way forward is to be frank with him that whilst everyone was prepared to accept his family for a few days a few times in the year, he's now taking it a step too far and having them to stay for a few weeks is just not going to work out. They might want to consider whether they are still happy with the way he has taken over the only room big enough to form communal space (from what you've said) given the way he's now moved the boundaries - if not, now would be a good time to put things back (possibly offering him use of the lounge with a double air mattress for the "odd weekends" when his family visit).

IMO leaving it until the GF arrives and then making her life hell is taking out their frustrations on someone who is (potentially) an equally innocent party in all of this. I'm not saying there's no circumstances where I might do it, but I do think it should be a total last resort.

I like the idea of waiting until the guy has gone out and moving all his stuff back into the tiny bedroom. That or make him pay more rent. One of the studdent houses I know has 3 big rooms and 1 tiny one. The guy living in the tiny room paid less rent as he should.

IMO leaving it until the GF arrives and then making her life hell is taking out their frustrations on someone who is (potentially) an equally innocent party in all of this. I'm not saying there's no circumstances where I might do it, but I do think it should be a total last resort

Its a also risky because its a lot harder to get someone out then, especially if kids/nowhere to go/yadd yadda is involved.

The 3 other students and the landlord's interests will be aligned on this, but act soon

If I were you: If it looks as if your brother and the others won't be able to get it sorted by saying NO to this guy, then I suggest that probably the most effective way would be for you to contact the landlord.

You should tell him that this guy is planning to move more people into the house, against the wishes of your brother for whom you are guarantor. Tell the landlord that if that happens, your brother will be moving out as soon as he finds somewhere and won't be paying rent from the day they move in, as subletting should be against the terms of the tenancy. Say you are prepared to argue your case should he take you to court. Then add that, as this hasn't happened yet, the best solution for all would be for him, the landlord, to contact Mr. Fertile and make it clear that no girlfriends and babies are allowed to come and stay!

He may be hands off, but I reckon that he'd see that reading Mr. Fertile the riot act would be the best way to sort it.

OP As guarantor you are absolutely within your right to speak to the landlord. Not unreasonable at all.

Can you get a copy of the contract your bro signed? Some student accommodation has clauses about guests staying. Hell, actually many do (limits of 2 weeks for instance) to avoid sub letting etc. If your bro is unwilling to do anything I'd contact the student union housing and or CAB for their rights.

Mr Fertile

Speak to the LL yourself AND go to the council's housing department. Most councils have rules about how many people can legally occupy a dwelling of a certain size. Having this many may constitute overcrowding, or a house in multiple occupation for which a LL must have a license (or can have license revoked for overcrowding the place).

Has your brother and his friends actually sat down would be family man and said "sorry mate, your gf and kids staying here is Not on" ?

That has to be the initial approach, surely?

I imagine the landlord will have an HMO licence. If not he is breaking the law. The licence will (I think) have been granted taking into account the suitability of the facilities for the number of tenants he has told the local council he intends to have. If landlord refuses to co-operate with your brother, then it may be worth brother having a word with HMO licensing at the relevant council.

OP, I've had this thread on Watch. I'm wondering if your brother got sorted?

Dont you think its a wee bit precious to complain about the guys family being there for a couple of weeks? If he was moving them in permanently Id completely agree but what do they want, him not to see his kids for months?

Whether or not she is pg and their financial situation is none of hte rest of their business as long as he is paying their costs.

And also while I fully understand that its a bit different because they did not choose to have these children (meaning your brother and the housemates), as for the studying side, DH and I have managed several degrees between us while also having and raising a family and both working full time.

I suppose I lack sympathy a bit because I think a degree on its own isnt a huge undertaking, in fact if you can focus only on it then you are pretty privileged!!