In thinking the recent events are show that some parents should have their children removed at birth simply for being scum ?

[SatansLittleHelper]

There are children out on the strets, 8/9/10/11 years old out on the streets looting and firebombing properties. Where the hell are their parents ? Has anybody ever given a shit about them ?

I am sick to death of scummy fuckwits who pop out one kid after another, they don't teach them morals or empathy these kids are dragged up, they have no chance. I really wouldn't be surprised if some of them have been sent out with 'shopping lists' because after all, we all need a 50 inch plasma.

I really do think that people who aren't capable of being decent human beings should have the right to raise children taken away from them.

Rant over.

It's such a well-reasoned, well-thought out OP. It certainly deserves such responsese in turn.

what a very very shitty argument. not thought out at all.

so who makes the decision to take away these children.

what is the criteria for the taking away of children?

where does the money come from to take away the children, the processes, the change in legislature, the care of the children which have been taken away.

this is the kind of low brow argument one would expect from certain other parenting websites.

It has come to the fore how utterly 'SUN Newspaper'(not even ..even daily mail) MN has become over the last few days

Of course- removing them at birth is the answer...

because children in care don't -

*have the lowest educational outcomes of any 'minority' group
*have a 1 in 3 chance of being a parent at 19
*have

No Birdsgotta, it was to the OP. My typing was started when there were no other replies on the thread. I am a slow typster.

I was just pointing out the impossibility of formulating a method of ascertaining worthiness.

Absolutely. How many of these children of scum will you be volunteering to adopt, OP?

If the op could spell than maybe we could take them more seriously.

When I was on benefits I did not need a bribe to stop me producing an endless supply of children. I had temporarily lost the ability to earn a living , I still had my morals and common sense.

Most parents in Hackney are bringing up well rounded and hard working teenagers. Please do not tar all familes from the less well off areas with the same brush, or suggest that all of the children in the east end are deprived.

Why the Klad?

Didn't you post the other day saying that it was your intention to place your daughter in the care of a state appointed official because she'd got herself a tramp stamp without your knowledge or consent?

Seems to me that is tantamount to giving the state control over procreation after the event.

Let me get this straight.....
OP, the gov't can't seem to manage the economy, the justice system, housing or decent care for the elderly, but you would trust their wisdom in determining who got their children taken off them?!
I get that you are upset about what is happening, but really....

I totally agree with you, Goody.

Seriously, the level of fascism on MN this week is unbelievable.

Which tv channel are you fucking watching?

When i watched the news none of the teenagers had a sign in front of him saying : 'hi, my parents are on benefits, they had 11 of us to get more money, they smoke and brought us up on fruitshoots'.

Where the fuck do you get your information from? Or do you know each of them?

We don't know them. Some of them maybe are poor some not, some steal for the kick. How do you know he is not the son of wealthy parents and just got into drugs? How do you know their parents are home smoking waiting for the goods. His father might be sucking the secretary and his mother off to Milan for shopping and the son got into gangs (actually i know a family like this). See, you can make assumptions, 100s different ones.

In the mean time thousants of working poor people are having a hell night. Yes, it is actually poor people who live above shops and are at risk tonight.

Don't turn something sad into another idiotic attack to poor families and single mothers.

In Australia many part Aboriginal children were removed from their families in the 60s, as a matter of course, because the state believed that their parents could not raise them properly. These were the children of a poverty stricken, uneducated minority group. Many of the children suffered physical, sexual and emotional abuse while in state care. Perhaps some parents need support to help them provide the best care they can to their own children.

I have just read an article in the Times, on three different perspectives on the riots, a witness, a victim and, below, the words of a former troublemaker
It gives a very moving picture of what it is like for the children of "scummy fuckwits"

(cut&pasted from the Times)

Joseph

A few years ago it would have been the other way around. Instead of coming home from work, I would have been looting the shops with the rest of them. I was capable of smashing all the windows; I could have petrol-bombed them, looted whatever was in there and enjoyed the mayhem. It would have felt like an opportunity to get one over the authorities.

To you I would have been a typical yob but what you don?t know about me is that I was fed up of living. All my life my dad was an alcoholic. He died of an alcohol overdose. My mother committed suicide by jumping off the flats where we lived. I found her dying on the concrete.

I?d heard from other kids on the street about Kids Company, so I made my way there to find lots of frightening teenagers, just like myself, hanging around the doors. It?s taken a long time for me to recover but I was sure Kids Company wouldn?t give up, even though I felt like it at times. Their passion for my wellbeing kept me going. In September I?m starting university and at the moment I?m working at an architectural firm.

But I want you to know that seeing the riots made me feel like I wanted to join in. I wanted to take revenge on the authorities for letting my mum die and not getting the right kind of help for her. But shall I tell you why I didn?t? Because, for the first time in my life, I had things I really valued. It wasn?t fear of the police or going to prison that stopped me from behaving badly, it was hope that I could be a respected member of society.

However, I still sympathise with those kids who, to you, look like violent thugs but I guess I know them differently. Their bad behaviour is only a symptom of pain they?ve endured for years.

PS You?re lucky I didn?t join in. Half of Peckham would be burnt down, including my old school, the Maudsley Hospital, the housing department that kept taking me to court and the police station for their targeting young people all the time from poverty-stricken areas.

Joseph is in his early twenties

What a load of reactionary right wing bollocks.

Forced adoption? Sterilisation?

What the actual fuck is going on with mn at the moment.

That's very sad TanteRose, but it does rather put the ball back in the OP's court. It just illustrates very well what she is saying (albeit rather crassly); that people who are ill-equipped to parent properly produce damaged, lost children with no boundaries, and no moral compass, who are then quite likely to repeat the whole sorry exercise.

I think what has happened on MN is that mostly the wet lefty liberal types don't actually have to face the reality of living with dangerous people.

So from their nice safe homes with their well fed and loved children they can spout on about how 'Everyone is nice really, it is just that the Government is so mean etc'.

Faced the the reality that plenty of people live with everyday, I.e. their homes and lives and kids under threat. The hand wringing stops and the knives come out.

It is all very well while it is happening to 'them'but once it is happening to 'us' well it is time for the water cannons and tanks.

It is easy to worry about the yoof when it is mother your door they are smashing through.

This sort of thing brings out peoples true colours.

*not your door.

I am not with any incentive not to have children, and I am not with taking the children away. What they should actually do is sterilise them. I know that that is a breach of their human rights, but they are breaching ours when they behave the way they do.

Fair point Morloth.

I do not condone the riotors in any way, and want them to be stopped as much as anyone.

What shocks me on mn is the focus on right wing long term solutions which will get us precisely no where.

More children in the care system as the OP is suggesting will not make things better.

What will work is equality of opportunity, fair distribution of wealth, good quality housing and environments, positive (non criminal) role models.

Oh and support for parents and investment in early years. Sort of like those, what were they called, SureStart centres?

And someone was suggesting that MNetters should run the country!

I said it was a bad idea and I rest my case with this thread.

The reason most children in the care system have such poor outcomes is because they are already so damaged by the time they get there that it is very very hard to place them with families who can turn their lives around in good time.

If less focus were put on the rights of woefully dysfunctional parents, and more attention was paid to what is the best outcome for the child it would be far easier to permanently remove vulnerable children at birth, or at the first sign of serious abuse/neglect. Then their outcomes would generally be rather good. Not perfect, but rather good.

Of course that is providing they were not allowed to fester for years in care because the exact ethnic or religious match of adoptive/foster parent cannot be found.

But as usual, all our money is spent on fannying around trying to decide what shade of sticking plaster should be used, instead of tackling the root causes.

Maybe parents who have such damaging facist views as the OP should have their children taken away at birth, so they can't pass the ignorance on?

Could work!

We already have measures in place to remove children from unfit parents. What we do not have are sufficient resources to provide parenting and family support to those parents who are 'good enough' but struggling, and who need help to raise their DCs.

Anyway, poor parenting is certainly one of the contributing factors in these riots, but not the only.