Forsake The Forskin Vs Tolerate the Turtle-neck

[UselessForeskinHiddenSurgeon]

When our DC arrives (approx 4months) should we be blessed with a boy (we don't know/want to know) , my partner (Jewish) would like to perform Brit milah on DS. This ceremony must occur 8 days after birth. My folks (Muslim) would also appreciate possible future grandson being foreskin free for similar but slightly different religious purposes. I am not particularly religious and nor is my partner (hence marrying out)

I was circumcised at the age of twelve and have clear (though not painful) memories of the event (carried out by Muslim surgeon at home along with my two younger brothers) Do remember being a little scared and i suppose it might have been a bit of an ordeal... Do have at least one amusing anecdote from it so i can't be that scarred surely?

Despite my own experience I don't like the idea at all. my first instinct is to put it off until later in the hope that everyone will just forget... i mean how often do you think about someone else's foreskin? There are some health benifits, among them; significantly reduced risk of HIV, HPV and also reduced incidence of genital warts among circumcised men. These are not enough to swing my opinion. Now my folks may be cool with leaving it until later since they themselves left it until i was a little older, but she is adamant we have it performed after 8 days (as per Brit Milah tradition)

AIBU to want to make a fuss about this? perhaps i should just cross my fingers and hope for a girl. We shall call her Queenie and she defo won't need to go for a chop thanks. I'd like a girl anyhow and it would make it easier for sure... since this is the case we're bound to wind up with a boy. Comments, Opinions, and possible strategies please!

Cheers people.

i said earlier in the thread that there can be medical reasons for doing it, but for any other reason i think it is WRONG! its not necessary and can be harmful, there really is NO justification imo.

"Of course nowhere on those internet pages it is called "female circumcision", but rather swanky "labia minor-a and major-a modification"
Complete nonsense, but given the chance to hear these woman, I am sure they will probably be able to come up with million reasons for doing it, and justifying it along the way."

If an informed adult wants to have cosmetic surgery performed on their genitals to get them to look the way they want then that's up to them. That goes for a woman wanting genital piercings or a man wanting to be circumcised - their body, their choice.

I think that's an entirely different situation from parents choosing to have their child circumcised for non-medical reasons. Adults choosing to have their own genitalia modified can give informed consent. A baby cannot.

Strictlovingmum - the procedure for reducing the labia, major or minor, can in no way be compared to female genital mutilation.

InTheNightKitchen you have put that far more eloquently than I would have been capable of. I agree with every single word.

I don't know, I think OP will do what they are set to do, for the reasons known to them.
This a very hot topic, and all our discussions here on MN won't change fundamental issue, circumcision will be preformed, for various reasons in the future all over the globe.
Deep religious beliefs seem to be prevailing when it comes to making this difficult decision, and sadly parents do succumb to pressures of their families and their communities.
On some level I do understand it, it is difficult to change something that has been going on for hundreds if not thousands of years, it might take still a very long time for this practice to die down, but something tells me it won't be in my lifetime.

Excellent post InTheNightKitchen

I've been lurking and have just caught up. May I suggest in the strongest possible terms that you POSTPONE a final decision until you have your baby in your arms? If indeed your baby is male, you will have a week to crystallise your thoughts.
Parental pressure is a piss poor reason to mutilate your baby IMO. If you have a history of battles with your respective parents, and feel that you need to make the occasional grand gesture concession, then maybe this would be better made in the arena of names/schooling/religious indoctrination, than by sacrificing part of your son's tiny penis to a scalpel?
I so hope you have a girl.

Lovely post, InTheNightKitchen, I agree with every word.

However - I continue to have huge sympathies for the OP who, alongside his wife, finds himself in a difficult situation.

It is so often the case that only with having own children, certain issued get pushed until there is no easy 'get out' clause anymore.

Very tricky decision. My gut instinct is that it is up to your son, but this doesn't help in practice. I may get flamed for this, but I do think in this case as the fellow male who has experience of it your feelings in wanting the best for a son must be considered very carefully.

Will your son will be automatically Jewish via his mother? there is a worry here that he will then been seen as a confirmed Jew by his mothers family. This could trump your families wishes as the father they may assume your children to be automatically Muslim (maybe why they are not apparently so concerned?). Not what either of you want I suspect.

Protecting your son - are you doing more to protect him socially/physically/
emotionally by doing it or not doing it? There are social advantages and physical and emotional disadvantages. Emotionally the only non Muslim/Jewish men I have 'known' who were cut had big ishoos with it (not so with Muslim/Jewish men).

I think you and your wife need to discuss this together in full so that whatever decision is taken you are fully aware of the implications of it if you decide to go ahead. At the very least you should both be able to answer the question 'why did you have me done?' and have a coherent answer that you are comfortable with. The default unless you are religious is to leave him intact so there do need to be reasons to go ahead.

btw, once your wife sees the lovely baby, she may also feel she can't submit him to this either

inthenightkitche cross posted. Well put.

Useless

Are you sure you are mature enough to have a baby?

Are you sure your DW hasn't scheduled to have your balls cut off at the same time as your baby's foreskin?

Even if you can convince his Jewish GPs that your child has been cut because he is going to be Jewish, at the same time as convincing his Muslim GPs it's been done because he's going to be Muslim, where will the lies end? Both sets of GPs are either going to have a gorgeous GC who they will adore because he's an amazing new human being or they'll have a GC they never quite fully accept because one of his parents comes from the wrong background, I really hope it's the former but I don't think any bit you chop off will make a difference to how they really feel.

Useless, this subject struck a real chord with me as my husband (jewish) and myself (non religious) have just been through this scenario. Throughout our married life i had always believed that we would circumcise a son if we had one. Luckily the question never arose and we had 3 beautiful daughters...until 5 months ago we had a little boy!
In Jewish culture your son will be jewish as the faith is passed from the mother to the child, now i'm not Jewish so our son isnt.
After the birth my husband began making enquiries as to how to go about getting a Bris etc its not that easy if you live in the sticks like we do and if you're not jewish!! and slowly i was getting doubts which grew and grew i couldnt believe i had even considered getting a circumcision done...on what grounds? I simply couldnt justify it..what? so he just looked like Dad? I consider myself an educated person i have a medical background and i read a great deal around the subject. All i can say to you is that as i held my beautiful boy in my arms it was unthinkable. There is a world of difference to how you feel when something is a hypothetical possibility to a reality. I'm not saying it was easy, my husband is very traditional and this was very important to him...we got through it.... i think he understood how i felt, he is a great husband. We visit his family who live overseas later this year.. i'm ready for the onslaught! But i stand firmly by my decision to let my little boy choose whats right for him..he came into the world that way and it wasnt my right to change that.

I will apologise here for not reading through the entire thread - there are a lot of posts! - but I do have something to add.

DH had to have a circumsion as an adult a few years ago because his foreskin was tightening and it was getting beyond uncomfortable to the painful stage and without the op would continue to get worse. Apparently this is not an uncommon thing; you can be born with it or it can have adult onset, and often you can stretch it out (ouch) but sometimes its too bad for that. I know he would have been much happier if it had been done as a baby, he had to have a full anasthaetic and time off work and he was so worried about it too.

I had never heard of it before and although common it doesnt happen to everyone but I am sure most men would prefer not to have to deal with it as an adult!!

Thanks primafacie your post provided some comfort whilst i was trying not to be sick at my desk. at 33 years of age hangovers seem to start later last longer and cause far more distress than they did at 23.

breathslowly mature has never been my strong point. I have her for that, though it is something i shall have to work on especially since she shall be returning to full time employment when she feels ready. After that the plan is for me to be at home/playgroup/etc with DC. just call me Mister Mom wooohooo! as for you 2nd point... should DW choose to unburden me of my family jewels then i'm afraid you'll have to come to some arrangement with pelvicfloor since it would appear i have offered her first refusal.

badbagel We were planing on getting it done as far as possible according to jewish custom but i am insisting that a surgeon do the actual snippy bit. as far as the islamic side of things is concerned we shall have a celebration and some kind of ceremony around the time he hits puberty (though the act of circumcision will have long since occured)

aftereight "If you have a history of battles with your respective parents, and feel that you need to make the occasional concession, then maybe this would be better made in the arena of names/schooling/religious indoctrination, than by sacrificing part of your son's tiny penis to a scalpel?
I so hope you have a girl." ---> As far as i can see this is a form of indoctrination... I too hope we have a girl, it'll give us a stay of execution and more time for DW to change her mind. if we don't have a girl then my last hope (as some others have already discussed) is that with our child helpless in her arms she might have a last minute change of heart. if so it shall happen with no further pressure on my part...

inthenightkitchen I liked your post very much and it was good to get a view from someone in a similar marital situation. unfortunately we have not been blessed with parents as supportive as yours. i would argue that issues arising from GGPs about to shuffle off the mortal coil are nowhere near as pressing as those of posed by GPs likely to live long enough to directly influence our DC through words/actions/attitude. Though our situation may be similar i fear they are not similar enough... unfortunatly only DW and I have a view of the entire wrenched scene.

You might think that if you give in on this issue, the baby's grandparents will all ease off. >>> I expect nothing of the sort and do not presume that giving way on this will result in a reduction in future issues. i am fully prepared for crap to be thrown at us until all four of them go to their graves. we will take whatever they throw at us, what we're trying to avoid is crap being thrown directly at our DC. i can only hope that the sight of their grandchild will soften their hearts enough to make them back off and give DW and I back enough space to breath.

she means by this is that one day your son will ask you why he was circumcised. You will have to look at him, as an adult to a young adult and say "It was up to your mum. I had nothing to do with it." Does this sound like the sort of thing that a parent can say to a child and still keep their respect?>>> if and when the moment comes, that will most definitely not be my response.

strictlylovingmum

On some level I do understand it, it is difficult to change something that has been going on for hundreds if not thousands of years, it might take still a very long time for this practice to die down, but something tells me it won't be in my lifetime. >>> the future for the practice as a whole is likely going to be a long one, but in this particular family unit it ends with us and our DC. neither of us wish to coerce our children into doing things against their own judgment. i wonder how are parents are able to do so to us, seemingly indifferent to our anguish.

Some of you have made comments alluding to my relationship with DW. Though i do not expect anyone to fully comprehend the nature of our relationship (since nobody here has spent any time with us...) What i shall say is this: My loyalty to her is fierce and utterly without compromise. I am now and will remain unapologetic about it.

one last thing before i log out for the night...

despite everything, we both love our parents dearly. We are both keenly aware that we have destroyed many of the hopes they held for us (whether rightly or wrongly held) and have replaced them with fears for our future that the find difficult. We both struggle to understand their mindset and come to compromises that we can all live with. We appreciate that it is hard for them and try our best to make them understand that we are not doomed to disaster or bound to go to hell or whatever it is this week. We continue to do this despite dissuasion & past failures. We do all this out of love.

thank you all for your responses and points of view. this whole exercise has been quite an eye opener. must say that i have become rather fond of this space and many of you that inhabit it. the first i knew of it's existence was reading in the guardian about mumsnetters knocking prime minister cameron down a peg or three. teehee...

goodnight everybody! oh and apologies for drunken posting. not had a drink for a long while and lost the plot enough to fall over more than once. bbbbyeeeeeeeeeee!

p.s.

Tommorrow DW and i are going to see a midsummer nights dream (rsc). having been once already, i must say it was brilliant. extremely funny and not at all dull. i don't want this to be deemed a plug so i'll leave those that are interested to google for tickets.

it would appear that our and are have become interchangeable in the mangled mess of brain left over from my binge drinking.... oh dear.

Some of you have made comments alluding to my relationship with DW. Though i do not expect anyone to fully comprehend the nature of our relationship (since nobody here has spent any time with us...) What i shall say is this: My loyalty to her is fierce and utterly without compromise. I am now and will remain unapologetic about it.

Just wanted to reiterate this if only because comments about not standing up to my partner and jokes about her taking my nutsack as a souvenir have pissed me off rather a lot of i'm absolutely honest. I totally refuse to pile further pressure on my partner regarding an issue where we both agree, if she feels unable to change her position. I just won't do it. if people want to judge me for that they can, but it's hurtful and frankly a bit childish. okay i'm done now. goodnight.

@ strictlovingmum
Not at all a load of shit.

Re the pain issue, circumcised boys showed greater facial pain responses to vaccinations at 4 and 6 months vs controls (using pain relief during circumcision reduced but did not elimiate the difference; Taddio et al, 1997, Lancet) and any surgery in infancy is associated with greater need for painkillers during/after later surgeries up to at least three years later (Peters et al, 2005, Pain).

And re the sperm-competition idea, documented outcomes of circumcision include:

"increased effort
required to overcome friction during intromission (Taves,
2002); desensitization of the penis, raising the threshold for
sexual arousal (Immerman & Mackey, 1997; Sorrells et al.,
2007); increased latency to ejaculation (Senkul et al., 2004),
which would especially hinder hasty covert copulations;
decreased stimulation of the female, potentially impacting
cryptic choice (O'Hara & O'Hara, 1999); an 8-mm decrease
in mean length of the erect penis associated with
circumcision (Richters, Gerofi, & Donovan, 1995); elimination
of sex pheromones produced by the preputial
mucosa (Immerman & Mackey 1997); and disruption of
neural feedback involved in adaptive modulation of
copulation dynamics (Cold & Taylor, 1999)."
www.anth.uconn.edu/degree_programs/ecolevo/mgmarticle.pdf

I read as much as I could, but it's very long post,( in many places) read enough to get the gist of it.
First let me start by saying, what a unlikely union between a Jewish woman and Muslim man.
Before any of you try to slate me, I understand Judaism well, being of a Jewish heritage, such unions just don't take place, or not very often for the very obvious reasons.
If such marital union does take place, considering similarities of two religion, circumcision should not be problem, and should be performed under a strict Jewish law, seeing mother is Jewish.
There is nothing here to debate, Muslims and Jews circumcise their boys, end of.
I am going to presume for minute here, OP being genuine post, all of it kosher and above the board.
OP's DW has final word here, all male children should be circumcised, not open for discussion and that's the way it is.
As I can recall it's a same situation in Islam law, all boys to be circumcised.
OP I don't know what it is exactly you are trying to gain by having a discussion about the subject of circumcision, there is nothing to justify to yourself or anybody else.
Good reasons for doing it, Jewish and Muslim parents, need I say more, just get on with it.
I actually find it very distasteful OP you are discussing this very private and sacred subject here.

Whether this is a wind up or not zlaya, the OP is perfectly entitled to discuss anything they want to.

You might find it distasteful to discuss private and sacred subjects here, but the OP and all the posters who've answered, do not.

I believe it's very important to discuss private and sacred subjects when they involve operations on newborn babies, much more important than mundane things like whether to use cloth or disposable nappies.

Things are obviously not as cut and dried as you make out they should be, or why would the OP still be here?

And, Zlaya, as the OP pointed out neither he nor his DW are particularly religious - so it isn't cut and dried for them at all.
I find your comment suggesting this is a wind-up because, to paraphrase, "jews don't marry muslims" to be distasteful in its own right. Very. Take your own bigoted views elsewhere - the OP is entitled to express his reservations and get others' opinions.

Please don't presume agent, that you understand, something that is so not in your beliefs or religion, correct me if I am wrong.
This important subject is deeply etched in our way of life and religious beliefs, so and so I find it deeply intrusive when people decide to discuss it with masses on public forum. Surely I have right to express my opinion just as the next person.
For us this is a way of life that needs to be respected and kept sacred.
Things are cut and dry for me and I am sure OP will respond relevantly.
Just because we don't agree agent it doesn't mean I am wrong, it only means we are very different, in fact world's apart.

Just as you have the right to express your opinion zlaya, all the other posters and OP also have the right to express theirs.

And by that token please don't assume you know anything about me with regards to belief or religion.

As religion and faith are things that have been organised into something where lots of people can find something in common with each other, I thnk a public forum is just the place to look at what those things are.

It crossed my mind as well that the OP was on the wind up, but I came to the conclusion that if he was, he would have come up with something a tad more contentious than the fact that he has an overwhelming love for his wife!

The scandal of it!

He probably would have described how he wanted his son circumcised and was trying to find a way to force his wife into agreeing.